Colonial and the Horrible Horseshoe

[Matt_Cohn]

To add to the list...

Inverness 4, 5, 6 or 5, 6, 7  (466, 450, 231, 481)
Wente Vineyards 16-18 (447, 453, 469)

The toughest stretch I've played that includes all different pars has to be holes 2-4 at Oak Tree.

[mike_beene]

That Oak Tree stretch is tough to beat,including the first hole.I think Colonial is overrated and would put it in the second ten at best in Texas.It is a flat river bottom.That said ,3,4 and 5 are as tough a stretch as any I can think of and I have been through the Pebble Stretch 20 times.

[James Bennett]

Kalen, any stretch qualifies as long as the holes are in succession. 8,9 and 10 are certain canidates.


How about 16,17 and 18 at Riviera?

What about #2, #3 and #4 at Riviera, David?

[Chris Perry]

Though I've never played it, I'll nominate Princeville's 12-14.

It doesn't have to be long to be tough.

And considering what we saw last weekend, what about Sawgrass' 16-18?

[Andy Hodson]

This thread is just another chance for Matt to show his little regard for golf in Texas.

[David Stamm]

Kalen, any stretch qualifies as long as the holes are in succession. 8,9 and 10 are certain canidates.


How about 16,17 and 18 at Riviera?

What about #2, #3 and #4 at Riviera, David?

James, I can't argue with that combo either. But then again, I think ALL of Riviera is both tough and fantastic. What a course! The 4th is just awesome.

[mike_malone]

Wayne,

  It's interesting that you selected #8-#9-#10 at Rolling Green. I see #13-#14-#15 as the Amen corner there.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I grant you 13 and 14 are tough holes, but 15 is not very hard; it is rather a great hole.  12 is not hard either.  These are the reasons why I did not consider a three-hole sequence that included 13 and 14.  I read this not about great holes, but about very difficult holes.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   Although it is only one data point , the qualifiers for the U.S.Amateur found 15 tougher than 9 . I was surprised at the ranking of 9. It was among the easiest to par. 13 was the toughest 14 and 10 were soon thereafter, if I am recalling correctly.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy H:

I do enjoy golf in Texas and have said the state has made major gains in the last few years -- see my praise for Dallas National and The Rawls Course at Texas Tech, as just two clear examples of that.

The broader issue is that although Texas is very big and the egos of Texans is legendary -- the quality of the golf has ONLY NOW become more and more competitive at the highest of levels.

Colonial is a wonderful course but it gets way too much praise because of the Hogan connection and its Tour involvement. Place Colonial in the Northeast and frankly it would blend in very easily with the second tier layouts here.

[mike_beene]

Matt,just curious,have you played Brook Hollow,Lakewood,Northwood or Ridgewood?Agree we have some nice new courses but those old ones are hardly ever mentioned and put in a different part of the world would be much more highly regarded(especially after restoration-renovation the last few years and advances in grass)To me ,Shady Oaks is more interesting than Colonial.I try not to be to defensive of North Texas but I really like playing here and the more I travel the more I appreciate it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I do think Matt is right in that the NE and even Chicago has so many great courses that the overall tradition of golf courses is better than in Texas, and I live here in DFW! (grew up in Chicago and born in NY though)  Texas was sort of a Johnny come lately to golf, and more of a follower than a leader architecturally.

That said, there was no reason for Matt to drag in World Class and other items to David's quite simple question - what stretch of 3 holes have you played that is the toughest.  Frankly, a lot of Philly's courses are elevated in the minds of this group because of the acclaim given Pine Valley and Merion!

BTW, if we qualify it as three different pars, wouldn't many of Pete Dye's courses, including last week's TPC qualify, since he ends many with the 5-3-4 combo?  The weakest link of TPC would be 16, which is a medium difficulty par 5, but no less so than PB 6, while TPC 17 holds its own with PB 7 (and is a similar type hole) and TPC 18 probably beats PB 8 in difficulty, if not scenery.  And, it doesn't have a blind, lay up tee shot, which many wouldn't consider "great" if we are talking other elements than difficulty.

Just my .02

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I have played Brook Hollow and Northwood from a few years back. Just try to remember this -- I am not suggesting that quality golf doesn't exist in Texas. So if you are headed in that direction then you are all wet.

What I did state is that until most recently the collective nature of what calls itself golf in the Lone Star State is a number of notches below the top tier stuff you see along the I-95 corridor stretching from Philadelphia thru Boston and including all of Long Island. If you don't understand that or believe that then you need to see the sheer array of top tier courses the area has.

Mike, with all due respect, I don't know much you travel but I can tell you from my various visits throughout the USA that the quality of Texas golf is certainly moving up and is further along than it was 20 or more years ago. However, you need to realize that the bar for quality golf has risen in other areas of the country too.

If one thing has certainly happened in Texas golf it's the rise in the quality of public courses -- both taxpayer, resort and CCFAD types. That's a big time plus and I can say this from the different ones I have played -- I see the Lone Star State ahead of both New York and Pennsy when public courses alone are thrown together for comparisons and contrasts.

Jeff B:

Just to help out your memory -- the top tier private courses immediately below the level of Pine Valley and Merion are still a good ways beyond what you see in Texas -- save for the most recent additions like Dallas National, to name one clear contender. When you say "a lot" -- I don't know how many you mean or what courses you are attributing that belief too. The top 10 private in the greater Philadelphia area alone would be miles ahead of a similar private club listing for the State of Texas.

Keep in mind the idea that Colonial is some sort of top 100 course is more allusion than reality. The connection to Hogan and the playing of an annual tour event has done the course well through the years. It also helps to have a big time fan like Dan Jenkins on board.

Jeff, I like Colonial but truly it's more past hype than present day reality IMHO.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Specifically, I have toured many Philly, NJ, NY, CT, MA and Long Island and and played some.  There is a clearly higher number of courses designed by top gca's in those areas that are in the top tier of the world.  Texas may have none of those.  

While I have basically concurred with your opinion, I see a lot of the courses in Philly, like Philly CC, Lehigh or Hungington Valley as both in about the same league as Colonial.  I grant Colonial is flatter, but in architectural features, it's not inferior to most NE Golden Age courses.  

You talk about Dan Jenkins being a Colonial supporter, which is true.  But down here, and elsewhere, we all reel from the NE centeredness of all media, which gives anything worth supporting in the NE a huge advantage over other areas of the country, including golf course rankings.

Colonial, because it hosts a national tourney, is caught in that restoration vs. modernization question more than most.  If they choose to keep it substantially the same, Colonial scores will go lower.  But, is that necessary when its a great members course, and substantially the same challenge it has always been?

[mike_beene]

Matt,I may not be making my point very well.Texas golf ,which I am not saying is tops in the world ,is usually evaluated based upon its new courses.I personnally like Brook Hollow and Lakewood better than Colonial and certainly better than these newer courses,but that is just me.I unfortunately travel as much as anyone is phisically capable.I haven't had the chance to play much in the northeast,but I get to Scotland most every summer and have for the last 10 years.I also play most of the California courses.Unfortunately I dont play any course very much.All I am asking is that people play some of our old courses and judge for themselves whether Colonial is all there is(or assume it is really top tier)

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I hear what you are saying but you missed my point completely.

You NEED to see and play the sheer array of private courses that inhabit the I-95 corridor -- Philadelphia thru Boston and including all of Long Island. I would say your golf architecture education would really benefit from such personal experiences. Texas private golf has no real fotting among such company. That doesn't mean to say it's low tier stuff not worthy of discussion. The issue for me is one of context and my background in having seen / played the courses in question.

I salute Texas golf -- especially on the recent public course scene -- you may have missed it -- but I acknowledge and would say that the collective number of top tier public courses in the Lone Star State is beyond that of New York and Penna when compared to their similar offerings.

Jeff:

Please, with all due respect, enough of the predictable and lame whine about the Northeast. I don't doubt there are a number of elements in the Northeast that are overrated -- see this year's version of the NY Yankees, as but one example -- but the idea that other areas of the country are not given fair reviews by ME AND OTHERS LIKE ME is utter rubbish.

There's no doubt in my mind -- maybe you feel otherwise, that the fanfare attached to the sheer array of spectacular courses in the I-95 corridor from Philadelphia thru Boston and including all of Long Island is without peer. The proof of the pudding in that regard is the taste and that taste is nothing less than stellar stuff.

Jeff, I've praised courses from all sectors of the country when I believe it's warranted -- in fact -- I am more tenacious on courses in my own "neck of the woods" than many who live in the area and elsewhere.

The issue I have with Colonial has nothing to do with the fellows are shooting this week or in years past. The golf course got plenty of ink because it made major strides in hosting the US Open in a part of the country in which no majors were played. Throw in the Marvin Leonard connection, the involvement of Ben Hogan and the annual event from the PGA Tour and no doubt you have plenty of attention. Dan Jenkins, as you readily admit, has certainly does his part too.

Colonial, for me, is akin to Cherry Hills in Denver. A wonderful contribution to the game in that locale but one whose overall position when considered through a nation wide prism needs a more complete perspective / analsys.

[JSlonis]

How about right out of the box with 1,2 & 3 at Winged Foot West?  There can't be a much tougher start anywhere.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I posted this on my thread about the Colonial and a re-route to make the Horseshoe #15, 116, & 17.

Tiimes have changed.  Not necessarily for the better, but this is not The Colonial from the 50's and 60's, and unless Erkel (T.W.) decides to play, this tournament will not capture the public's attention again the way it did in 2003 - My yardage book cover that week is a colector's item:

The Colonial Country Club
Ft. Sorenstam, Tx.

There is very little room to expand this course as it is borsered by housing on three sides, and the Trinity River on the 4th.  

The green complex at #11 is one of my favorites of all time, and it is very evocative of #4 at Merion IMHO.

That said:

In regard to the quailty of the field, this tournament is one of the last PGA TOUR events to be run by the club membership.  It's is hard for them to keep up with theWachovia's and other events that offer a plethora of perks such as Mercedes courtesy cars and wives trips to Asheville to see the Vanderbilt estate.

That said, this tournament has always been about the golf, and it has relied heavily upon:

1)  Its tradition,
2)  The 2nd week of two weeks in the Metroplex (makes it easy to come out for two weeks without the 2nd week airfare), as well as,
3)  A strong, but dwindling group of local tour players to fill its field.  

Combine the three elements above with the fact that you'll spend all week trying to draw or fade tee shots at the 280 yard mark to fit the doglegs, and this event is an easy miss without the EDS Byton Nelson to protect each other's events.

Personally, I really enjoyed this stop on the flea circus.  Downtown Ft. Worth always came on strong with its great restaurants and concerts, local house parties and country club feel to the event as opposed to another TPC at Real Estate Ridge event.  The members try hard, and are very proud of their tournament.  The Hogan Room with it's locker and all of the displays is even more impressive than his statue.

So what if -20 wins...

JWK

Mr. Slonis, agree that WFW's first three can lay a beat down on ya!

[redanman]

How many of these combos are tough tougher and toughest or good, better and best?

I'd rather pick say 15-17 Carnoustie, maybe not the very toughest but interesting multi-dimensional holes as well.

Most I am familiar with are the former.  The Horrible Horseshoe is pretty much a one trick pony - play it this way or die.

[David_Madison]

Oakmont 8, 9, 10 (or you can choose any other three consecutive holes you'd like). Get through those three holes with three pars and you've done something pretty special.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The local golf writer asked the PGA Tour if they had considered switching nines or rerouting Colonial for the tourney.  I wonder if he reads here?  I know him, so I will ask.

Anyway, the Tour responded much as James did - no changes because its the course Hogan played.

[Doug Siebert]

I think Prestwick 9, 10 and 11 needs consideration, given the prevailing wind from the sea is completely cross (right to left) on the long uphill 9th, followed by another long par 4 that plays directly into the teeth of the wind, and then the medium distance par 3 11th that has a helping wind from the right and a slope to the left making it damn hard to avoid either missing the green left, long or both.

I'd agree with Carnoustie's 16-18th if not for my lifetime -2 on those three on two trips around.  OK, OK, they are tough, I'm just lucky there for some reason...