GCA Evans Scholarship Fundraiser at Chambers Bay

[Garland Bayley]

As an answer to "was it the course or was it us", I say it was us. I have no doubt that a fellow high handicaper and walker friend from my home course and I could walk and carry and get around in under 3 hours on that course without being held up. We of course would play handicap appropriate tees.

As for #12, what is to understand? You judge your situation and make the choice of what you want to play. Up until then I had been hitting driver straight, so I pulled it, took an easy swing, and piped it right up the middle of the fairway into the foursome in front of us (oops). Greg pulled 5 iron and hit his ball right next to mine. I don't know how far the forward tees will be set on that hole, but if they are set at 250 or so from time to time I might go for it with driver and a full swing. The hole has a character of its own. You have to decide how much penalty you are willing to pay for the shot you attempt. At your age Jordan perhaps the excess hormone poisoning your brain would cause you to go for it every time.

As for getting out of the waste areas, Greg and I were out to have a fun day and hand wedges and foot wedges were employed on occaision. We don't know what our scores were, but we had a great time.

As far as great shots are concerned, we arrived at the ninth tee before all of the group ahead of us had hit. They told us that Jim Adkisson had just hit and perhaps missed holing it by an inch and ended up with 7 feet for birdie. My shot came off the side bank and passed perhaps a foot behind the hole before ending up at 8 feet.

I would have trouble thinking how any other par 3 on earth could have a more scenic background than #9. It may be my favorite par 3 on earth. I think we drew an easy hole location yesterday and would like to see how some of the other hole locations play before giving it the title.

[Garland Bayley]

How does Chambers Bay stack up against some other courses?

A few years ago I began to try to seek out some better courses to play and widen my experience. The first such course that I played that had significant recognition is an appropriate course to compare to, because both it and Chambers Bay are reclamations of sites that required significant modification to the existing terrain to create the course. That first course I sought out was Jack Nicklaus' Old Works in Anaconda, Montana. Probably my most significant courses before then were Yellowstone Country Club in Billings, MT and Elkhorn in Sun Valley, ID that I played in my youth. If I remember correctly, both are RTJ II designs.

Old Works and Chambers Bay both have remainants of what previously occupied their sites. Old Works has ruins from the copper smelter that polluted the area and Chambers Bay has the remains of the sorting bins for the gravel and sand mining that was done there.

As some of the readers of this site may recall, I grew up in the mountain west and really appreciate a very natural look. Although I admit that knowledge of previous uses for the sites of the course may subconsciously affect my judgement, I find both courses to look fairly natural in their setting. The one exception for Chambers Bay is the 8th hole, which is obviously cut and filled.

When I first played Old Works, I had this feeling of wondering is that all there is? Is this really that much better than other courses so as to make people go gaga over it? I can report no such feeling after playing Chambers Bay. IMHO Chambers Bay is way better than Old Works. I has many more choices, challenges, and just plain fun shots to play. I hope and suspect they will have the Bethpage Black problem at Chambers Bay. How could a course this good with such easy access for the local people fail? I for one just can't see that being possible.

[Jordan Wall]

Garland,

I just wish there was more strategy beyond what is at the green on 12.

For instance, most likely if you laid up you are going to have a blind shot to the green.  It would be more enticing to lay up and leave a full wedge if there was a spot where the pin and green would not be blind.  However, due to the very bowl shaped nature of the holes corridors, any ball in the fairway will to likely roll the middle.  From the middle of the fairway the second shot is blind.  You can be 120 out, or 75 out, but either way most of the green is going to be obscured, and the ball will still be somewhere near the middle of the fairway.

I think that if a lay-up shot was more enticing off the tee, the hole could be a great hole.  As it is, I think it is a quirky hole with a great green and green surrounds.  Some may disagree but that is what I thought of the hole.  And, quirky isn't necesarilly bad either.  The hole was good, but I'm just bummed it wasn't great, because the green is so good that that hole could truly have been a great, great short par-4.


If I look at the rest of the course critically, my only other downside is that all the par-3's are downhill, unless you play 17 from 220 and even then the hole looked slightly downhill.  Now I like all the par-3's, and though they are all downhill they are all very different and have their own character, but it seemed to me, that with so many uphill holes, there really could have been a stellar uphill par-3.
The rest of the course, though, is just so great.  The diversity of the par-4s is amazing, and from what I've played its definitely one of the top courses par-4 wise that I have ever played.  The par-5's were pretty solid too, and again they were all different.  What is funny to note, however, is that there was not a single par-5 that was downhill.  I guess the second shot on 13 is downhill, but I bet from tee to green the hole is flat.  Just a note, not a critique, because I loved all the par-5s and thought they were all very good and diverse.

[Bob Jenkins]

Garland,

We are all indebted to you for organizing this outing. Chambers Bay is spectacular and to have a chance to play before it officially opens was a very special treat, especially with the architect, the contractor and operator all there to tell us the story of how it came about and give us a tour before picking up clubs. RTJII have come up with a unique and VERY challenging design. I would be afraid to play the course if the greens were rolling at even 10 on the stimp.

For what it is worth:

  - 10 will clearly be my favourite. One of the best approaches I can think of to a small green with severe bunkers on either side, dunes down both sides of the last half of the fairway with an opening to Chambers Bay behind the green. Reminds me of BD #5 although the dunes are higher at CB and CB does not have a hazard in the middle of the fairway

  - Jay mentioned how Pierce County wanted a walking course and that is admirable for an owner, knowing that will cut down on cart revenue and potential customers. Although I enjoyed it very much, I believe it is a marginal walking course since the elevation changes are rather severe, especially on the back portion of the front nine. Seniors will have a lot of difficulty walking the course. More than anything else, I was not expecting the extent of elevation changes.

  - I loved the teeing areas. "Ribbon extensions of the fairway" was the term I believe Jay used in describing them. Not always level either, which was very cool. Made me think of the Sheep Ranch. Probably the most unique tees I have ever seen. I could not wait to see them all.

  - Looking at photos of the course posted here previously, I could not figure out what the vertical lines were on the dunes. Having seen it and having had them explained by Jay Blasi, they are machine tracks intended to provide retention and a base for the grass so it is less likely to be blown off by the local winds. Correct Jay? If so, I assume they will become less apparent in time? You mentioned it is a bit of a guess what the course will look like in a few years and having seen it since listening to your comment, I understand what you were talking about. I assume the excavator tracks will fade away?

  - Public access:  Having the walking path through the course was great and gave it a St. Andrews feel. Also those looking down on us from the paths above. Very unique and it made the course part of the community which I realize is what they were trying to accomplish.

  - Each hole was very unique and memorable, it can truly be considered a major test once it matures and the setting adds so much. RTJ II have done a remarkable job of taking advantage of the setting.

Most of all, I really appreciate being able to spend a day with many of you whose names I have seen on my screen for the last year. Great group. Peter and Bob were great playing partners and I cannot wait for more GCA events.

Jordan, it must be that Sean has set you up for all of the abuse! From this perspective, GCA is a better place with you!

Thanks again to everyone. Loved it and cannot wait to go back to Chambers Bay! Now to figure out how to post all of these photos I took!

Bob Jenkins

[Garland Bayley]

...From the middle of the fairway the second shot is blind.  You can be 120 out, or 75 out, but either way most of the green is going to be obscured, and the ball will still be somewhere near the middle of the fairway...

You must be planning a career on the PGA tour instead of a career as a GCA. I could care less that the shot from 120 to 75 was blind. The two high handicappers in the outing had that shot. One of them stiffed it, the other, me, pushed the shot left (mollydooker), but otherwise hit the needed shot. All we had to do was take a few steps to the side, get a picture of the target in our minds and hold that picture in our minds while pulling the trigger.

Your complaints sound just like the people Alister MacKenzie complained about in The Spirit of Saint Andrews. Be careful, or the good doctor will prescribe a steady diet of Fazio for you.

BTW. I agree with Bob that the website is better off for having you.

[Greg Cameron]

Happy,Happy,HappyWhat a nice day!!What a remarkable presentation....Thanks to all involved....I will certainly play again and hopefully with such fine gentlemen as I did on sunday(I met a fella named Garland,usually on greens and tees only and somehow I sensed he wanted at my devalued cdn$ bucks,he even left his 6'birdie putt on 9 short,waiting for me to bite,I know the kind.....)Awesome place, awesome concept,awesome people.Long term vision?Lets hope Andrew or newcomer Scott or others will soon post pics....I'd  pay the admission here because I can,unlike some places spoken of here where they wouldn't let my kind on, Well done All....Greg  

[Jordan Wall]

...From the middle of the fairway the second shot is blind.  You can be 120 out, or 75 out, but either way most of the green is going to be obscured, and the ball will still be somewhere near the middle of the fairway...

You must be planning a career on the PGA tour instead of a career as a GCA. I could care less that the shot from 120 to 75 was blind. The two high handicappers in the outing had that shot. One of them stiffed it, the other, me, pushed the shot left (mollydooker), but otherwise hit the needed shot. All we had to do was take a few steps to the side, get a picture of the target in our minds and hold that picture in our minds while pulling the trigger.

Your complaints sound just like the people Alister MacKenzie complained about in The Spirit of Saint Andrews. Be careful, or the good doctor will prescribe a steady diet of Fazio for you.

BTW. I agree with Bob that the website is better off for having you.

 Garland, I dont disagree that it is ok to have a blind shot to that green, especially on a par-4 of that length.  However, I would like the hole a lot better if it was created so you could challenge the dune on the right and, if successful, gain a somewhat level lie and a view of the green.  As it is, there is no way to gain a view of the green through a lay-up shot.  I think that is the one part of the hole that confuses me.

 
 
 Dont you agree that if there was a space in the fairway, where you could challenge the right dune to gain a view of the green it would be a better hole?
 
 Because, honestly, I didnt think at all of laying up yesterday.  If it was into the wind, I wouldnt have thought of laying up either.  It's just not worth it.  You can hit a great shot, right as you want to hit it, and have the hardest wedge shot you'll have on the entire course.  And I dont always go for it either...in a practice round for state this past Monday I laid up with an 8-iron from 220 and so you cant say my youthfullness makes me go for everything.
 




I know I am rambling, but picture it this way.  If you go for the green, and miss right, you arent even guaranteed a par, from 20 yards, the green is that good and tough.  But the first 230 yards are just boring.  If you hit the fairway, then your in the middle due to the bowl 98% of the time.  There is no strategy in that.  Plain and simple.

[Garland Bayley]

In one of the more famous posts on this website, John Kirk wrote.

I believe the most exciting shots in golf are the ones we wait the longest time to ascertain the result.  This applies to both long and short shots, sometimes in different ways:

Everyone enjoys and admires a powerful drive.  It flies for a long time, and in many cases, rolls for several seconds before coming to rest.  But if the drive is clearly in good shape, the anticipation of result is diminished, and the attention turns to the next play.

The same holds for approach shots.  A high shot in the direction of the flagstick or green is interesting as it flies, and all eyes await the final result.  But balls that immediately come to rest on a soft green are somewhat of a visual disappointment.

A drive or approach shot that disappears from sight holds our attention for a long time, as we anticipate the result for the entire walk until sighting the ball.  That's why I would make the case for the occasional blind shot off the tee.  Even a poor shot on any hole which disappears from sight evokes plenty of apprehension, or excitement, until the result is determined.

If the wind is blowing, then airborne shots are more interesting to follow, as we anticipate the wind's effect on the shot.

But shots along the ground are subject to more variation, and are of great interest.  To me, the most exciting shot to watch in golf is a putt or short shot that takes a very long time to arrive at the hole.  Nothing is better than a putt that rolls for 10 seconds and goes in.  That's why most here like fast greens with sloped surfaces.  And we like undulating chipping areas with firm turf, so we can see our shots roll out for a long time.

This also can explain why I don't like my ball to fly OB, or in a water hazard.  It's gone; the fun ends abruptly.

I thought this weekend about trying to develop my own little unified theory about golf course design, based on my belief that the excitement in golf is the anticipation of watching your ball come to rest, and the longer, the better.  Of course, there are some limitations.  Tapping a 3 footer downhill, and watching it trickle for 10 seconds 40 feet long would be exciting, but in a very aggravating way.  Some finesse is involved to make the game exciting, yet playable in a reasonable amount of time with appropriate difficulty.  That's where the artistry lies.

Is the course attractive?  Important.  Does the course offer me different playing options, and encourage me to hit different shots?  Really important.  But the greatest joy occurs between the stroke and the result, and the longer it takes, the better.

The tee shots on #9 reminded me of this quote. It is such a long way down, there is a great wait in anticipation of the result. You watch for wind effects, for shot shaping effects, and then when the ball reaches the ground, for the effect of the kicks off the sidehill or green contours.

Does this hint a why people like downhill par 3s? Most downhill par 3s give a hint of this effect, but #9 really magnifies it.

BTW Jordan, I think #3 and #17 from the back tees are level enough that I wouldn't falt them for being downhill. Besides RTJ II gave you an uphill par 3 (or 3.5) in 12, and you complained about it.  

[Pat Howard]

I didn't find the landing area (for a layup) at 12 to be very narrow at all considering that if you were laying up on the hole you would be hitting a mid-iron. If you can't land a 5-iron on that fairway head to the driving range for an hour and then try it again...

I do, however, agree with Jordan that by laying up you're not much better off because of the blind wedge shot you're left with. With the prevailing wind at your back there, I can't see many players laying back.

[Greg Cameron]

Pat, after worming my 3 iron off the tee(Garland had secret yellow weaponed his drive way up Bill,Jim,and Scotts butt)I blindly hit a wedge(less wind in the gully)onto the principles nose and somehow it stuck,,leaving me my only bird putt of the  day...I missed on purpose cos of Garland of course, we hadn't yet settled the money thing.... 1 blind hole for us hacks is good, even playing field?...Greg

[Ari Techner]

First off THANK YOU to everyone who made this great day happen.  Special Thanks to Garland, Robert Trent Jones II team, Head Golf Professional Nick Pyk, my playing partners Pat Howard and Jeff McCoy, our caddie Gerald who could not have been better and everyone else at Chambers Bay.  

I had a great time, it was really great to meet everyone and put faces to the names.  I am very sorry I had to leave before everyone finished but it was a long drive back to Eugene and we were quite a few holes in front of even the closest group behind us.
 
I thought the course was spectacular.  RTJII's team really did a great job with the site.  It plays very well already I think once it grows in it will really be special.  I very much look forward to coming back especially a few years from now.  

I dont have much original to add on top of what everyone else has said.  I was surprised a little bit but not bothered by all the elevation changes.  I thought there were 18 great unique golf holes here.  I would say 10 was my favorite hole with 9 a close second.  There are alot of standout holes.  I liked 12 alot the green is one of the best on the course and it is very unique.  I do agree that it makes you want to fire at the green as the layup area is very small but I dont think there is anything wrong with that.  I have no problem with a blind shot here or there especially if it is the result of a conservative play.  My other favorites would be 3,4,6,7,14,15,16,18.  The entire back 9 is especially good.  
 
I loved how they integrated the community with the course with the walking trails on the course and above it on the rim and with the railway.  There will be a public park on the other side of the remnants of the Storage Bins to the right of the 18th fairway which will only add to this.  

I dont think pace of play will be a big issue.  Pat, Jeff and I played in less than 4 hour and we definitely took out time to look around a little bit.  

Jordan's drive on #12 was impressive.  We were all standing on the 15th tee razzing him and he pulled the tee shot off perfectly, at the right side of the green with a little draw at the pin.  Although the nice shot was somewhat offset by the distracting blinding pink of his shirt................    

Once again a big THANK YOU to everyone who made this happen.  It was truely a great day.  Congratulations also to Pierce County.  You really have something special on your hands.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Nice to have all of you in Pierce County for a visit.  

Looking at the posts I do have a few questions.  

The first would be as to what acceptable pace of play will be for what is essentially a CCFAD?  Or is it a muni?  4 1/2 hours would be acceptable and five hours would probably be expected.  We don't have to like it.  This may also change when fescues prevent actually finding a ball and those human climbing chains cease to occur on the steep sides of in particular #1 & #10.

Second is concerning the trail which is quite close on #2 and returning on #17.  Being a course owned by a municipality, how many incidents occur before they step in and do something regretable like erecting a fence?  

Now finally, having played the course in opposing wind conditions, the strategy is really very different on some of the holes.  Notably #14 which in a wind from the north seems difficult to get a ball above the bunker to the right and really bringing the 7 acre waste area into play on the left and on #16 where the north wind brings the left hand areas into play.  The south wind of course made for a long second shot to the smallest green on the golf course.  

Strongest hole on the golf course has to #10 and the weakest #8.  I wonder if 8 is the way it is simply as a way to get you to Mt Olympus?  What a spectacular view from the ninth tee!  

Great to see all of you in my home town and many thanks to Garland for his tenacity in making this happen.  Next time your here include a round at "The Home Course" in Dupont and give me a shout and we'll tee it up at Oakbrook as well.

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

Will the course in DuPont be known as "The Home Course", because it will be home to the Washington State Golf Association? Also, how long will it be before we see Come and Play in Pierce County ads in Golf Digest?
 

[Garland Bayley]

A hearty thank you to the Jones Group, Pierce County and Kemper Sports for the opportunity to play Chambers Bay, even on mats.
     The course kept my interest on every shot with all the strategery required. Lots of angles to consider. And wind. And drop shots. And some blind shots. The California greens have a lot of contour and character, and the surrounds can be used to great effect on a number of holes. The teeing areas really are an extension of the fairways rather than seperate (sic) entities. Made some visits into the grey sand bunkers and they are very playable.  
     I'm leery of new courses with hole names, but here they are as practical as the holes are memorable. Need a better name for 7-9. Orca's Jaws?
     

Peter,

I have not been overseas to play golf (other than Addis Abeba CC, but that is another story). I know you have played links in the British Isles and in Australia. Do you clasify this as "true links golf"?

Any comparisons you would like to make?

[Bob Jenkins]

Garland,

The most obvious difference between Chambers Bay and a "true" links course is the greater changes in elevation at Chambers Bay. I

Also Chambers is obviously not sandy land reclaimed from the sea which is a basic definition of links.

It certainly does play like a links course in many ways. The wind was up on Sunday and that is an essential ingredient of links golf. I assume once the grasses mature, especially on the dunes (or mounds) it will look even more like a links course.

Bob J

[Peter_Herreid]

For those of you who may have played #8 differently than I, and experienced more of the right side of the entire hole, I am curious if there really is a viable "low road" over there.

The hole is called "High Road Low Road", but I'm not sure I saw a way that one would necessarily opt to play down the right side intentionally.  I'm sure many balls will wind up down there, given the slope of the fairway and property, but was there any advantage to being down there.

I found this the weakest hole on the property, and I suspect, as I think either Cos or Garland mentioned, it was more about getting from the 7th green to that particular spot for the 9th tee than anything else.

I was musing as to whether any kind of true split fairway option could have been done there, a truly wider and flatter but perhaps much lower fairway (not unlike Yale #18) could have been considered.  The approach for the 3rd shot could then have been from a flat lie to a severely uphill and blind green (a la #7 at Bandon Dunes).  This might have kept the "High Road" as a riskier, but more obviously preferred, pathway.

Now it just seems as if all the faded shots will wind up going over the slope onto the severe downhill dune anyway...

[Garland Bayley]

I am not sure of this, but if I remember the information from their website correctly (firefox on linux, which I use at work, does not display that part of the website correctly), the high road/low road reference is to placing the second shot. I think the fairway as you near the green has the two levels.

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland
   I knew it wasn't a links course by true definition before I drove up. Neither is Whistling Straits. But that didn't stop me from feeling that the Jones group did all they could to make it feel like one. It played like one in every respect. It has the potential to be as brutal as any course. Just play and add it up at the end.
   #8 - Hole description: http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/layout10.asp?id=173&page=3350
Played fairway, high road fairway (low road fairway is better), slacked off third short right. Pitched across the green
to the left bumper and it hung up. Nudged ball and it rolled down to tap in range. In retrospect I like its strategic design a lot better than TPC Snoqualmie where Nicklaus consistenly created the better strategy near the cart path and far from the bluff drop-offs. Playing the second short to the low road makes the third shot much easier. The higher road is usually  a preferred route. When viewed from afar, the hole reminds me of Glacier NP Going to the Sun road (edited per the corrector )

My favorite hole is #13. I know you don't know what you're getting into at the tee but there are so many options presented for the second shot and a great green complex.
Just hope there are connisseurs on the peanut gallery walking path.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Pete,

It seems my recollection of high road/low road was correct.

I think you may be referring to "Going to the Sun" road in Glacier. I think I know exactly which section you think looks like #8.

I think perhaps Chambers Bay is a links. Not a "true links", but a "faux links" on constructed sand dunes.

[Jordan Wall]

Peter,

I thought 8 was a cool hole.

The fairway movement was incredible on that hole.  I remember hitting a great tee shot, going up to my ball, and thinking something along the lines of how am I going to pull this off??  The green was good, plus the great view of the sound and course the entire length of the hole.

Besides a lower, alternate fairway, do you think there would have been a way to make the hole better?

[Pete_Pittock]

Jordan,
I like it the way it is. IMO the optimal strategy for the hole is to try and hit the low road to get the correct angle to the green and the left side banking. In order to do this you must challenge the edge, or hit a fade. Depending on the wind angles and velocity that may requiring aiming over the precipice. It wasn't until I looked at the hole map today that I saw a protective bunker over the edge.

[Peter_Herreid]

I think a lot may depend on how "filled in" that left hillside becomes.  Anymore visually intimidating and people will be spending all day sending shots sailing off the drop-off to the right.  This will lead to an unending parade of groups waiting and plotting how to get back up on the fairway, and at what length or angle, and may lead to enormous back-ups on this hole and inevitably on the 9th tee...

It may also be a function of how much "firm and fast" results eventually, as with the cant of that fairway I can see that many, many folks may well wind up on the right edge of the hillside anyway.

I'm looking again at my pix of that hole and I guess I can't say I see now, or felt then, the big advantage of electively trying to stay to the right, but if some of you say that's the way to go, I'll take another look in August or September.  To me it felt not unlike #17 at the Olympic Club, with the added disadvantage of a massive cliff off to the right, where all the shots wanted to go....

It's only my opinion, and worth the paper it's printed on, but I might have preferred to see a bit more distinction between the two "roads", which seem to me to be more of a steady slope.  Perhaps then the green could have been a bit more "benched" into the hillside, to give the riskier high road a bit clearer advantage, and increase the discomfort of choosing the low road...

[Pete_Pittock]

I enjoyed the routing despite the three climbs. It changes directions enough to vary the wind effect. There are only four stretchs where you play consecutive holes with the same wind.

[RJ_Daley]

While I only walked and haven't yet played, I think 7 is a heck of good hole.  The elevated green complex is full of fun with false front receiving a long iron or FW metal over the humps.  While I walked the length of 8, I couldn't get a good read on how it might play.  It is pretty much a 3 shotter for all but strong players.  So, figuring out how to ticky tak up and down the contours of the FW will take many playing opportunities, I think.  I really like 9 with so many teeing ground options and angles of set-up.

[Jeff Doerr]

A great day to see the course and meet some great guys!

Thanks to all who made it possible - RTJ2 Team, The Staff at Chambers Bay, Garland & Tiger.

I have three sets of pictures to post. Tonight will be the morning shots I took while driving in.

This is a view done #5 from the upper path.


#7 Fairway and Tee (The fairway looking strip) with #6 Green behind.


#8 Climbing up the hill.


#9 Green with #18 and #1 behind.


From the vantage point above the place looks BIG. It really is a majestic site.