[Tom Doak]

As some of you know, we are doing planning for an exclusive private club in Palm Desert, up against the mountains, with very high initiation fees.  We HAVE to put a large amount of water storage up there for the irrigation system, and the client is insistent on building some water features to go with it.

So, is that going to ruin the course in your eyes?  Could we do a great strategic design, use the land well, and yet lose most of the credit for doing something purely esthetic (and maybe in some places strategic) that the customers want?

I KNOW it's not necessary, but it's their money ...

[George Pazin]

Tom -

I think you know the answer to this one. Some will groan & complain, others will understand you can't bite the hand that feeds you - and then the whiners will all come out of the woodwork & claim that we're giving you a free pass. Just do your normal top notch job & ultimately it won't matter one way or the other.

[Ted Sturges]

Tom,

I would do my best to talk them out of it.  Part of me thinks it will ruin the project completely, but another part of me thinks that it wouldn't be as bad as building a great golf course like Lost Dunes only to have it maintained so soft that the course isn't any fun to play.  If given the choice between having a course "play right" and having to look at a waterfall, or having a great design be ruined by unbelievable soft playing conditions....I'll take the waterfall.

TS

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Well, now you are a big time architect, aren't you?  

I guess you'll just have to go through the same learning process the others have.  Not that you need it, but I offer the following suggestions,

First, you could just go with the flow (pardon the pun) and do one bigger or at least different than the next guy.  Perhaps Mt. Rushmore type sculptures of Jack, Arnie, and Tiger, with the water spewing out of appropriate places.  Now that would get some media coverage.  I just wonder who would, shall we say, have the biggest fountain?

Second, if you want something to be natural, I suggest you replicate the occaisional, but huge floods that go down those washes in Palm Desert.  Instead of a constant 3000 GPM trickle, release about 500M Gallons all at once, about four times a day.  The timing would be determined by how big a pump you have to pump it back up to the next lake for the next big flood.

Boy, is it easy to offer design ideas to practising architects via the internet!  I'm sure Tom will jump at the chance to incorporate them.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ask the client if they want to be ranked by GD (add the waterfall) or by GM and GW (nix the waterfall).  

This is semi-serious, actually.  If the clients want a "top x" course (they always seem to), will the waterfall hurt them amongst the purists?  Herein lies the magazine debate about who likes waterfalls and who doesn't.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Waterfalls are by definition neither good or bad.  I think that the waterfall on #17 at Shadow Creek is unforgettable, though over the top.  I think the waterfall on #9 and GC of Tennessee makes the hole.  The waterfall on #10 at Pete Dye GC is brilliant.  I think that a lot of Ted Robinson's waterfalls are gratuitous and not in the context of the hole.  I am sure that you are capable of making a waterfall that will add to the hole.  For reference, several months ago, I started a thread called "In celebration of Waterfalls."  Here is the link http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1028151851&start=0

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Waterfalls exist in the Tennessee piedmont. They exist in the Colorado mountains. They are everywhere in the Catskills. There are even some in Michigan.

There are no waterfalls in the desert.

Bob

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, from what I have gleaned in your posts and e-mail, you are on the cusp of begining several projects, but some may not be ready to go, and perhaps this entity that wants you to do the one in PS is ready to start, and you are thinking of trying to keep your crews busy.  

I look at the current diversity of design styles you are being engaged to work on and wonder if you will become, non-identifiable.  You may believe that the mark of a great archie is to accept them all and show that you can design in all types of conditions.  But, I am going to take the other side of that arguement.  

I think you should evaluate the land offered in PS, and if you really feel in your gut that you can do a superior job with your own ideas of a design style that is different than your clients tastes and desired atmosphere, but something that says Tom Doak all over it, then tell them no, and move on if they won't acquiese.  I don't think that water features per se are bad.  It depends on how they are incorporated.  But, a necessary irrigation resevoir of an understated design feature is better than an ostentatious waterfall in my opinion and I don't think that ought to be the determinant in your decision.  

It sounds to me like you have a couple of potential projects that suit your ability more.  I would do all that I can to make those projects happen, even if you still don't get the big payday that all archies who reach a certain level expect.  I can't blame you for wanting to start making more money for your associates etc.  But, I think that a couple of clinkers that could result from projects you are forced to step out of your design sensibilities on, and you will regress your reputation and in the end, your command of a big fee.  I'd charge that big fee when you can say that the client can afford it, and you can say that you earned it by building a course worthy of what you can say is your best effort, not a compromise design.

To say this all bluntly, don't dilute your reputation with compromises you are not comfortable with.

[Jim_Kennedy]

BCrosby,
There are some beautiful (as told to me by my niece) waterfalls in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park near Palm Desert.    

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

Is there any water that has ever fallen out of them thar mountains naturally out in Palm Desert? If so, maybe you could make it look like that somehow.

But I don't think there is any water that's ever fallen out of them thar mountains naturally around Palm Desert so I guess you can imagine what this "site natural" crowd would say about a waterfall!

But we all realize if the client wants it, insists on it and you can't talk him out of it by telling him it's a wholly unnatural thing to do and looks wholly unnatural, and that lots of people from Golfclubatlas and such are going to laugh and snicker at him for the rest of time--well I guess no one will blame you for it.

Exactly the same thing happened at Hanse's Applebrook--a waterfall!! And a very late entry at that. The owner just came in one day probably most of the way through construction and insisted on it. I'm sure Gil groaned, so did the rest of his company, so did a lot of us, but the owner insisted on it nevertheless. I've lived right here in Chester County Pa for quite a while and I don't really remember seeing a waterfall anywhere near this area--but that's what the owner wanted anyway.

So he got it! I don't think anybody blames Gil for it--at least those that know the story don't blame him! But that waterfall at Applebrook still looks unnatural and strange on that site!

[A_Clay_Man]

With the info given, I'd say that you need to probe the client more for what it is that they want. If they want to "out do" the last guy, I'd say they are barking up the wrong tree hiring you. But if they want waterflow for the purposes of enhancing the senses and feelings of the golfer, i'd say you'll be able to come up with something that will be tasteful, subtle and appropriate for the situation. Not many know, however ludicrous it may sound, that the Plam Springs area is above a huge aquafier. So, the unnaturalness of a waterfall in the desert is debatable.

My suggestion would be to have many smaller areas where water is trickling, nearer to teeing grounds (alla #6 BWR river) and/or greens (alla Forest Highlands sunset). Or, Perhaps near shots where a little additional calming influence is neccesary to soften the butt pucker of a tenacious shot. Or both.

 But, knowing those with more money than sense, as I do, there probably won't be too many butt puckerers designed in, will there?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here are several more:

Provo Falls, Utah
Calf Creek Falls, Utah Desert
Seven Falls, Sonoran Desert,Ariz.
Molino Canyon Falls
Escalante National Monument, several falls

There are probably more but my eyeballs were starting to glaze over whilst looking for them.

[Don_Mahaffey]

TD,
I believe there is a canyon up above Big Horn called horse thief canyon that has year round springs and some nice creeks and waterfalls. Taquitz (sp?) canyon above Palm Springs also has year round water and some nice falls. My .02 worth is, if you use your minimalist style and build natural creeks and falls that mirror those in the area then it would be a very nice, positive feature. As you know most of the water features in that area are closer to Disneyland then what is found in the area. Water features work for me when they integrate with the natural landscape, not overwhelm it. Good luck.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

May I suggest that you tell the owner all of the above and then that you will be more than happy to do it if he really wants it but that it will cost him another $1 million! And if he goes for that I would appreciate you sending me my $100.000 cut by the end of the month!

[RJ_Daley]

Just what would the procedure be if you incorporated the waterfalls?  Would you set aside some room for a resevoir, water course and recirculating system and subcontract the actual waterfall design/construction to someone that specializes in building and engineering them?  Or, would you design engineer, and build it yourself?  How many waterfalls have you design/built to date?

[BCrosby]

In light of Jim's geography lesson, let me rephrase the last sentence of my last post:

"There are no waterfalls in or around Palm Desert."

Bob

[Johnny Browne]

Tom,
Regards from Northern Ireland. It's a funny old world, everyone loves natural waterfalls but now almost all of us who visit this site hate golf course waterfalls with a vengance.  However I would put in whatever water features your client wants within reason and make them as natural as possible.  I suspect that the course will be good enough that the water features will be immaterial. There is only so much you can do to persuade someone if it is their money being spent.  A few on this site will pillory you but most of us are just different variety of golf nuts.

Johnny Browne

[Peter Galea]

Can you put it off the course, near the driving range and clubhouse?

[Rick Shefchik]

The mere fact that you've posed this question at GCA indicates concern over how the course will be perceived with a waterfall. If you can find a way to convey that concern to your clients (whom, as another poster astutely pointed out, must surely be hoping for a high ranking from somebody), maybe they'll see the light and scrub the waterfall themselves.

Otherwise, you're stuck creating the most tasteful waterfall you can for some tasteless people.

[ed_getka]

I avoid courses with waterfalls as I have yet to play one that was more than a 5 or 6 on your rating scale (except Princeville Prince, but I'm pretty sure that is a natural waterfall). There is a course in SoCal, Maderas, that has a waterfall that I actually liked, but you don't see it when you play the hole, you see it when you cross a footbridge to head over to the green. Unfortunately the owner for your course probably isn't interested in something like that, he'll want it out where he gets the maximum WOW factor. In spite of all this if I know you designed the course I would go to see it, so maybe you could do it in a way that reflects the area like Don Mahaffey suggested.

The good "Doctor" will be rolling over in his grave I fear.

[JakaB]

I don't see all that much wrong with the waterfall on the cover of Superintendent News since I am under no obligation to pay for it and I'm sure the members and 99% of the guests enjoy it...what I don't like is the back stop hump and slope of the green that seem to take the waterfall out of play.   I think the hole would be a bunch of fun if the green sloped front to back with a small hidden chipping area between the fall and the green.   It may be guilty pleasure but I'm sure if I were ever a guest at Trump National I would enjoy the view and if I were a member nude showers would top off many a round...the possibilities are endless.

In that vien Mr. Doak if you do design a waterfall please leave room for two for midnight showers with a possible hidden cavern behind for the more modest romantics.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom D

Just think of the waterfalls as design elements which will distract the golfer and not directly affect his or her play, much as much of the good Dr. MacK's "camouflage" influenced bunkering.

Natural?  If not, so what!  Has anybody ever (i.e. even B.F.) seen any "natural" bunkers in the vicinity of Ardmore Road or near a former nursery in Georgia?  Or, for that matter, grass, of any kind, growing "naturally" in the California desert?

Constructively

Rich(ard)

[DMoriarty]

Could we do a great strategic design, use the land well, and yet lose most of the credit for doing something purely esthetic (and maybe in some places strategic) that the customers want?

Tom, if you were updating the Confidential Guide and came across a desert course with a great strategic design, good use of the land, but waterfalls, what would you think?

Would the waterfalls automatically keep it out of the 8-10 range?  (I know you spoke highly of Shadow Creek, but are there other courses with lots of artificial water features that you consider great courses?)

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

You won't find rivetted bunkers in nature either, but they are natural to links golf.

If they insist on waterfalls, I'd try to keep them away from the golf course. Incorporate them into the practice facilities or the clubhouse or the parking lot. When I think of waterfalls and golf, I think of putt-putt.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Maybe waterfalls on a course is less a consideration than this:
Why should any more courses be built in the desert, period.

From a UMich study:

"Technology allows even the most inhospitable environments to be developed. Desert courses are common, in Arizona, California and other arid states. In the west, turf watering accounts for up to 60% of urban water use. (Fischer, 1993), To maintain its course, the Palm Springs Country Club uses 430 million gallons of water from the aquifer every year. At five times the national average, this is enough water for 11,000 people (if you want to think about it that way) (Selcraig, 1993).
Irrigation with sewage effluent is an idea that golfers don’t like, and it has questionable environmental impacts, but it saves the water source, and Palm Springs' courses(57) use a total of 130,000,000 gallons of water per day in the hottest, driest months. (Edmondson, 1987). This number is certainly less than the present rate, as Palm Springs now has 101 courses (Desert Publications Inc., 2001)."

The aquifer in this area is totally dependent upon run-off from the surrounding mountains. If you want to find out more proceed to the link.
http://www.aloha.net/~esinger/chap14.htm

I am no enviro-nut but when I hear the incredible amounts of water needed to maintain courses in some areas it is mind boggling.

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