[Voytek Wilczak]

It's good to see that such a daring project is apparently very successful.

Kudos to Mr Bergstol.

I don't know the current number of members but I would not be surprised if in a year or two they will have to start a waiting list.

I am opining based on recent treks along the waterfront walkway which goes around the course and seeing golfers on almost every hole.

Great bluefish and striper fishing there, too.

One prospective member enquired whether I eat the fish I catch in the Upper New York Bay. I said the government recommends maximum 1 meal a month, which to me means never.

It's all catch and release.

[James Bennett]

Great bluefish and striper fishing there, too.

One prospective member enquired whether I eat the fish I catch in the Upper New York Bay. I said the government recommends maximum 1 meal a month, which to me means never.

It's all catch and release.

Voytek

that is probably why there currently is great sport fishing there.  Not a lot of incentive for over-fishing by comercial or recreational fishers.

James B

[Jay Flemma]

Bayonne is one helluva golf course and a great time.

[Voytek Wilczak]

What I like about the Bayonne project is both architecture and seclusion. The players are really in their own world out there on the peninsula, in the middle of the industrial Hudson County, on the dunesy manufactured links, and somehow it all works.

All I can say is wow.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I get back my broken computer I'll post some pictures.  When I played there last week it seems to me that Bayonne has something like 200+ members.  It is and enginering miracle and an architectural marvel.  The clubhouse sits 90 feet above the natural elevation.  If I remember correctly they moved in 6  million cubit yards of earth from the Hudson.  

I think the thing that impressed me the most was the grass.  I felt as though I was in GB&I.  Even the paths from green to tee felt like they had been there for centuries.  

[Tom Dunne]

Voytek, could you tell what kind of progress they were making on the clubhouse?

Bayonne really is a cool place. It's a treat to play; I look forward to getting back there at some point.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Voytek, could you tell what kind of progress they were making on the clubhouse?

Bayonne really is a cool place. It's a treat to play; I look forward to getting back there at some point.

The main exterior structure is up and they are laying the stone on the outside of the building.  It is a pretty cool looking building.  

[redanman]

They had to rebuild the lighthouse.  The original architectural plans spec'd it in plywood and the BI decided that wouldn't fly (or perhaps it would!) so they tore it down and it looks like concrete.

Give the clubhouse to at least the end of August in my estimation.

Also, no Observation platform in said lighthouse because it would have required an elevator per ADA*

*(GOD BLESS AMERICA!  our wonderful ADA - a short little guy gets pillows to sit on on a plane while I pay ransom-like payments for tickets or stuff my6'5" self into a seat built for a midget.)


"It is and engineering miracle and an architectural marvel."

Tommy - it is neither an "EM" nor an "AM",  it is just a place that was expensive and complicated to build.

However it is a cool place to play that is better than I originally thought it was, but not as good as Matt Ward and Steve Lapper think it is.

It is probably no more than a Doak 6, but it is unique.

I'll probably post some pics on my website eventually.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Voytek, could you tell what kind of progress they were making on the clubhouse?

Bayonne really is a cool place. It's a treat to play; I look forward to getting back there at some point.

Tom:

I actually have a pic of the clubhouse from 2 weeks ago but am too dumb to figure out how to post it, even with a tutorial.

I will give it a try again, though.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy - it is neither an "EM" nor an "AM",  it is just a place that was expensive and complicated to build.

 I am probably easier to impress than most.  Moving that much dirt and routing the course on the 150 acres so that the course has an open feel is quite a feat.  Bergstol used elevation to give a feeling of width.  I guess the other thing that I found extraordinary were plants and grasses.  They may not be totally British but they do have a British feel.

[Tom Dunne]

Thanks for the photo, Voytek. The clubhouse should be pretty sweet when finished.

For those not from the NY area, Bayonne's flagpole is absolutely gargantuan. You can easily spot it from the Brooklyn promenade, in my neighborhood, and I've seen it from as far away as brownstone rooftops in Park Slope.

[Steve Lapper]

However it is a cool place to play that is better than I originally thought it was, but not as good as Matt Ward and Steve Lapper think it is.

Your forgot to mention: Brad Klein, 10-20 of the MGAs better amateur players, multiple other GCA posters & lurkers, and recently many of the LPGA professionals! Take Bills' word for it based on a few plays? I don't think so.

I've just finished another round there recently and think it's only getting better & better(softening up the greens) and and Bayonne is much much better than W. Vostinak thinks (for his few rounds there). If Shadow Creek merits a 9 (and Gourmets Choice) from the Doak scale, BGC deserves, earns and plays out to no less than an 8.5-9 relative to its Western relative. Unlike Shadow Creek, Eric Begstol's architecture isn't predicated on waterfalls, pretty birds and manicured falora and fauna to impress. Shy of heading over the pond, it's as much tight links fun and match play centric as anyone can ask for on this continent. Don't compare this to Shinny, NGLA or a Friars Head or Sebonack.....all of those had great original land to work with and carve a course out of. This former dump became sheer genius, even if articially created.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

While I have not awarded any Doak scale rating to Bayonne, I have seen it, and it would NOT be an 8.5-9 (or higher) by my accounting.  Maybe by yours, but please be sure to make it clear that is your opinion and not mine by speaking in less certain tones.

[Steve Lapper]

Quote:

If Shadow Creek merits a 9 (and Gourmets Choice) from the Doak scale, BGC deserves, earns and plays out to no less than an 8.5-9 relative to its Western relative. Unlike Shadow Creek, Eric Bergstol's architecture isn't predicated on waterfalls, pretty birds and manicured falora and fauna to impress.
 

Tom, & everyone else:

   Clearly all my comments are just that, my comments and thus opinion. There's my disclaimer for all to read. If you read what I said carefully, I used your Doak scale on a RELATIVE basis to your Shadow Creek rating. In no case, did I even insinuate that you, Tom gave it ANY rating, just that compared to your prior review of Shadow Creek, I believe Bayonne to be no less than its equal!

    You may have opened Pandora's Box just a wee bit though as the obvious next question is what DOAK rating does it earn from you? Also, is it what Bill Vostinak said...."no more than a 6"? If so, why? If we are to compare apples-to-apples, why does Shadow Creek score so high and Bayonne beneath it? Aren't both avowed 100% man-made and artificial creations with homage paid to work from older architects

    Is the Doak scale applicable to rating your recent courses? If so, I and others equally or even better able to judge might have a few revelations to offer up.

  I earnestly look forward to your reply.

PS... I am not seeking anything confrontational, just a little earnest dialogue and debate.

[Joel_Stewart]

Seems to me that Bayonne should be compared to Arcadia Bluffs and Whistling Straits vs. the courses on Long Island.  

Perhaps I see a new category for some magazine.  Best manufactured course.

[Steve Lapper]

Seems to me that Bayonne should be compared to Arcadia Bluffs and Whistling Straits vs. the courses on Long Island.  

Perhaps I see a new category for some magazine.  Best manufactured course.

Joel,

  Spot on! That is exactly what it hould be measured against, good, bad or ugly!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not sure it is as good as Whistling Straights.  All I know is that I could play it on a regular basis and not tire of it. I still think the routing on the 150 acres si brilliant.  His use of elevation changes to give a feeling of width is wonderful.  I think what amazes me the most is the creativity behind the the design.  It is certainly creation out of less than nothing.  

[Tom_Doak]

Steve L:

I would prefer not to have to rate Bayonne, nor any other modern course I have seen in the past ten years.  That's why there isn't another edition of The Confidential Guide in bookstores.

I wouldn't have opened the door at all to the idea, but your thought of granting Bayonne a 9 seemed so high to me that I felt I had to comment to protect the real 9's out there.  Many have objected to my rating Shadow Creek so highly, and that's up to them ... perhaps I was as far off on it as you are on Bayonne.  But the other 9's are courses like Winged Foot West and Pebble Beach and Oakmont and Prairie Dunes and Royal St. George's -- the rest of the top 30-40 courses in the world -- and I don't think Bayonne belongs in that peer group.

[Steve Lapper]

Tom:

    I do understand (and actually appreciate) your aversion to rating modern courses. Of course, as a golf book consumer, I relish the thought of another edition of the CG .

   I specifically granted Bayonne a 8.5-9 to for two reasons: 1) To illustrate that if a modern artificial creation, a la Shadow Creek, could garner such a lofty ranking, then its more contemporary and equally creative offspring might well deserve the same (btw, I agree with Tommy W. that Whistling is probably a slight bit more complete, and thus a better course by a nod), and; 2) To give W. Vostiniak a tweak that his regard for BGC is too low. Its likely a very decent 7.5 as most who've I've heard from having played it, do find it worth a trip to see. It is also quite unique.

   I agree 100% with you that BGC doesn't belong to that elite group of other "9's" you cite. Of course, I don't believe Shadow Creek does either, I've played eight rounds at the Wynn-Fazio spectacle, had a great time each visit, marveled at the creativity, but never felt the excitement (other than the aesthetic awe over the flora & fauna) I feel each time I tee it up in Bayonne!

 The relativity to Shadow Creek stands paramount as both represent the quality of the absolute "hand of man" and from-scratch creativity that might otherwise be so difficult to achieve success with. Remember that so many of the great painters of the last 1.5 centuries took great liberty to deviate from tradtional interpretations and instead struck out to form positively exotic and extreme canvas that few appreciated initially and only later came around to heap praise upon.

Lets not forget the special kudos that Eric Bergstol earns here. Unlike Fazio, he's only had a hand in designing (or construction efforts) less than 2-3 other courses...something the Faz can't quite so innocently declare pre-Shadow Creek. I think even you Tom, might agree that much of your present work is no less than partially interpretative from your past work. Can you say Ballyneal was a blank canvas that didn't take into account your efforts at Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes? Would it have met the same lovefest of praise if you hadn't done those others? Didn't you say that Sand Hills lent some considerable influence to your work there?

Eric didn't have that luxury of expereince, unless you count building affordable housing in the Bronx . I could go on, but I think my point has been made and I don't want to practice that verbal diarrhea that plagues GCA these days. Heaven knows I don't claim to be some regional expert or opinion-maker and I'm not writing any golf books nor creating a blog/website devoted to my estimations.

What Bayonne accomplishes is actually quite simple, IMHO. It is an excellent golf course that excels at mimicing traditonal Irish & Scottish playability and strategies. It shines, even among its glorified regional brethen, at providing a superior match play venue, balancing power, finesse, and creativity in a fashion that many wonderful nearby classics do well at, but don't always permit. All of the above makes it fun and sporty (ala Pat Mucci-style), leaving most ready to have another go just after stepping off the 18th green!


PS...I think the differential from 9-to-7-7.5 applies equally to us both. I'm happy to believe we can meet midway!

[Joe Bentham]

I've just finished another round there recently and think it's only getting better & better(softening up the greens)

Steve--
Curious how softening the greens on a links course would make it better.  Kind of seems counter productive......

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

I don't understand your point in regard to Ballyneal.  Yes, a designer and his shapers get better with practice; but great courses are the ones which really set themselves apart, and Ballyneal is handicapped in that regard because it will inevitably be compared to Pacific Dunes, to Sand Hills, and to Barnbougle.  If they didn't exist, I would guess Ballyneal would have attracted more attention than it has.

[Steve Lapper]

I've just finished another round there recently and think it's only getting better & better(softening up the greens)

Steve--
Curious how softening the greens on a links course would make it better.  Kind of seems counter productive......

The initial greens played rock hard, a functional by-product of having been built atop some concrete and highly-compressed sludge fill, thus for the first few months, were extraordinarily tough to hold shots. Determined small aeration & top dressing have brought them up to a much more playable level. They are quite undulating and can be devilishly quick at present.

My point about Ballyneal is that without your expereinces elsewhere, you might have built a very different style course at Ballyneal. I'm not sure I buy into your guess that it would have attracted more attention without your historic successes preceding it. Our collective cynical nature usually precludes us from ordaining a new king based on his virginal effort.

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