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George Pazin

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Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« on: May 23, 2007, 12:56:53 PM »
In reality, some one like Tom Doak who mostly has become successful through different design style probably is 10% different from the rest - granted there is no real way to quantify "differences in design".

How would you attempt to quantify "differences in design"?

Do you feel there is so little difference between architects/design firms?

Got some artwork to do, I'll post my thoughts shortly, but needless to say, I disagree emphatically.

And not just cause it's Tom D, I'd say the same thing about Gil Hanse, C&C, or any other architect that I prefer.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2007, 01:35:34 PM »
I'm going to go with something I have incidentally just read on the Josh Smith thread.  It is a sentiment not fully stated, yet implicit to me at least) in Josh's observations about his journey of leaving the commercial construction company for work with design-builders.  

It is the recognition that somethings are artistic in that field of GCA and construction, and some endeavors and practioners that are commercial at their very core are different.  Maybe it is only 10% of the overall product (though I believe it is more like 50%).  But at any percent, it is that percent that makes all the difference in the commercial (could be very well regarded as commercial) and the artistic, that could be controversial, not for everyone, but sparking more passion.

I also agree that there is no way to quantify the differences, but I beleive one feels them.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2007, 01:39:11 PM »
George,
I went to look at what Jeff said to try and get a better idea of the context in which he made this statement. I think he was saying that there are 50 or so architects whose work is top quality and it's tough to differentiate yourself from this crowd when trying to land a job, but that Tom Doak has a 10% advantage in this area.

If I'm reading him right, 10% is a large difference.    
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2007, 02:09:01 PM »
It all depends on how you define the 10%.  Tiger Woods isn't 10% better than any professional on Tour, if you measure by their average score.

I read a quote from Nicklaus recently where he suggests he is miles better than me (yes, he picked on me specifically) at understanding the strategy of the game, bunker placement, etc.  I would just say we have different ideas and focus on different things in that regard, and I don't know how anyone could be "10% better" than anyone else if they understand the game in general.  I've told several people recently that if I did a routing for a course and walked through it with one of my associates and never came back, it would be 95% as good as when I put in all my extra time, but I believe that 5% is very important.

I would disagree with Jeff that architects aren't more than 10% different in their ability to put together a routing, though.  I've seen other architects' routings for various sites we have worked on, and sometimes there is not one hole which is similar between the routings.  Not saying their routings were no good at all, but they are so much different that it has a big effect on the rest of the project, I would think more than 10% by any way you measure it.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 02:27:10 PM »
Oh, I'll have to disagree strongly with that prick...no wait!

I appreciate the discussion, and threw it out hoping for such.  It is a worthy topic, but it will still be hard to quantify.
I was really focused more on just how different design styles really are.

For a moment, let's keep it to the golden age so as not to make anything too personal.  In short as they designed, the practical constraints of golf development in that era forced them into many of the similar patterns.  

For example, some say Ross liked clubhouses in corners. I say he was forced to place them there often (as were others) because that was the shortest utility run.  As an example, Northwoods in Duluth is north of town and is it any wonder the clubhouse sits on the southernmost parcel of land where the utilities probably were already existing?

As I have said before, when I look at the GA books by Ross, Tillie, Thomas and Mack, I see sketches that look amazingly similar. I don't know who led and who followed, but the theory of strategy and play seemed similar in major elements - notably the zig zag fw, the angled carry bunkers off the tee and the frontal openings.

That said, you can sure see differences in a Ross to MacKenzie to Thomas course from the bunker look alone.  Tillie is hard to categorize.  Ross was conservative while the others had more flair with their bunkers, making overall, their courses better to my eye. So, the courses are similar, and yet I have my favorites.  

But as stated, even their bunkers had more in common than they had differences.  All had about the same amount of bunkers on most courses, the same scale, similar theroetical placement, depth, edge treatment, sand color, etc.  For those who like CC bunkers, all of the above is true, generally, and the big difference that attracts your eye is the "chunk" edges, which are (or at least were) to them.  

Taken in context of ALL the design decisions that were made about the bunkers on all courses, or even by measuring the square footage of chunk edge as a portion of the total, I think that that is not much a piece of the pie, design wise.

But if bunkers are 10% of design, and edging is 10% of bunker design, the design difference is 1%.  If you like that bunker style, or if that was your biggest criteria in determining whether YOU like a design, you might very well overinflate the actual design style differences between CC and PDG if they designed side by side courses.

And, of course, you wouldn't be wrong!  And, its not impossible to see that the whole can equal far more than the sum.  Lastly, such a numerical evaluation system falters when going on gut feel about what you like.

Don mentioned that PDG designed what seems to be their standard development course on an ocean front site down in Port Aransas ( I assume this is the one.  BTW, years ago, when there was a different developer, I had that job, so I am familiar with site)  If PDG did infact ignore the natural setting there might be more than 10% design differences!  However, knowing the site sat so low to sea level, I can attest that merely laying the golf holes on the existing ground wouldn't have worked, and extensive grading was necessary.

So whoever got the job would have done some grading, perhaps a different routing, etc, although even there I presume they would have found some of the same holes.

Any evaluation presumes that the gca's interviewed would all come up with decent routings.  Comparing what might have been to what became, is pretty difficult.  But given that most gca's would come up with par 70-72 and at least 7000 yards from the back tee, I propose that the routings could be deemed within 10% of each other.  If routing is 25% of the design components (if done badly, it could be more) and you preferred one routing to another that was 10% difference, there is a 2.5% difference.

The differences just aren't as much as we all presume, based on some pet features we like.  Even a Doak green at 4% isn't that much different than a Brauer green.

Tom Doak if a fine gca, and if a Tom Doak course is 10% better than other signature gca's on average, it is a huge design advantage, even if its a single digit number of %.  Fazio courses, for their style and market are 10% better than others, BTW - he rarely misses on details.  I actually think the top 10 guys have less actual design differences than the next 10 - 20 - and some of those are created with the extra budgets they get - but that marketing by any hot gca  convinces many that the differences are much greater.

Again, the topic is too theoretical to spend much time in more detail, but it support Mike Y's contention that Greg Norman or any of the others is hired more for the name than the design quality or even style, since so few even know what they like, or whats "good."  In fact, they probably hire Doak, Fazio, or even Weiskoph as much because they are "currently trendy" than for any other reasaon.  But, that's just a guess and I realize it does seem a bit cynical on my part.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 02:31:14 PM »
Thanks for the replies, everyone. Jim, I'll admit your interpretation is not at all how I read the (libelous :)) remark.

I'll add more later, after the screens are shot.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 02:44:55 PM »
Tom,

Sorry, our posts crossed.

Yes, routing is a big difference AND presuming they would all be good may be a stretch.  I don't think anyone who has obtained top 20 status in golf architecture is a poor router.  They naturally have different relative emphasis on routings by each designer - such as one that favors close greens and tees no matter what vs. one that doesn't, or one who strives harder for downhill holes at the expense of uphill tee walks really has an effect on how the course looks and plays.  

And, where it lands on the Doak scale, I presume!  As you say, routing does affect everything that follows, so a 5% difference in routings can be huge.  For that matter, the

It is possible (from my experience) that the proposal routings you saw were far far different than what the other gca might have come up with finally.  Those are often rushed, and later refined if the job is obtained.  I think Colt was critisized for his ability to come up with a routing quickly and not studying all options, and a quickly prepared routing is always subject to that criticism.  If you DO get it 95% right before your first walk through, I would say you are different than most gca's.  Most gca's go through 20 or more routings before seeing all the possibilities and selecting the best ones.

Your example of Tiger Woods is accurate - a check of PGA Tour stats says his scoring average about 3% better than Tour average, but that translates into 15 times as much money as average, so far this year.  And for other players, making the five foot putt a certain % of the time is important, but one who makes them less often, but at the right time MIGHT come out ahead.

As I have stated, its a theoretical argument, but a fun one to consider.

 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 02:57:36 PM »
Jeff:

By the money scale, we all make at least 10% of what Nicklaus does for any one design, but we sure don't make 10% of his total design income for the year!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 03:27:30 PM »
Tom,

To further parse that stat, Tiger's 3% scoring advantage not only translates into 15X the total money, but 30 times the average money per tournament.

I read once that in his peak year, JN had $55M in design income.  Even after inflation, Geoff Cornish would have to design a lot of courses per year to make that........
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 03:28:42 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 03:41:19 PM »
George,
Well, as you can see from the above responses by Jeff, I should clean my glasses.    8)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Pazin

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2007, 04:37:04 PM »
I'm glad you posted that, Peter, I think it adds to the discussion.

General question to everyone:

If a 3% "difference" such as Tiger's makes such a gigantic end difference, is it really just a 3% difference?

I think that's why Jeff's (completely ridiculous :)) 10% strikes me as so wrong - I would choose the Tom D, C&C and Gil courses I've played damn near 100% of the time over almost all of the rest of the courses I've played (which are admittedly few and I don't believe anyone well known on here or anywhere else, other than a few Fazios, and, I suppose, Black Mesa and Tobacco Road). (This obviously also leaves out Oakmont and Lehigh, they belong among the first list, with Tom and Co. My listing was not meant to be all-inclusive, merely illustrative of a point. I'm sure I'm leaving out others as well. Omission does not imply bashing. :))
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 04:38:30 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2007, 05:22:42 PM »
I think Tiger should be compared to his peers by his world golf standings rating number.  Currently he's more than 100% better than the 2nd best player in the world.  If you compare him to the rest of the best, hes in the 100s of percents better than them.   ;D

My only point is, the notion of trying to put into a numerical % how much better one architect is over another is ridiculous at best.  And even if you could come up with something empirical, you can always find something like I did that is nowhere close to being in the ballpark.....
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 05:23:18 PM by Kalen Braley »

paul cowley

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2007, 06:20:17 PM »
I saw a ball of gold in the sky....and I climbed to it...and it was 10% clay.

Funny, when I got down and looked up.... it was 24 carat!

Hard to figure this stuff.  :)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 06:22:02 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2007, 06:49:46 PM »
Jeff,
Come on down to Port A and take a walk with me. I'll even let you set me straight...but you need to see what was done there before generalizing.


Peter Pallotta

Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2007, 06:52:10 PM »
Paul C

Have you been reading "The Little Prince" recently? I haven't in much too long a time.

And if I could now somehow connect "The Little Prince" to this thread, I'd make up for my absurdly long and likely irrelevant post.

I think you got pretty close already.

Peter

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2007, 07:04:06 PM »
On principle, I will have to disagree with that budding internet celeb, Paul Cowley.  It's on principle, because I have no idea what he is saying, AND, I am pretty sure its too early for him to be in the bottle.......

George,

You miss my point.  Anyone passionate about gca (and that makes about 3500 of us worldwide, based on book sales, etc.) will pick favorites and then (human nature being what it is) defend those favorites to the hilt because our natures dictate that we do.  If not, no one would argue golf rankings, sports teams, or who the greatest home run hitter of all time was.

Added to that is the fact that passion isn't always associated with reason! It's the exact opposite of rational and detached reason in evaluation.  

And, your personal opinion isn't a statistially representative sample.  Thus, if there were a numeric ranking system for golf design features (and I think there area, witness GD and GW ranking systems) those numbers would come out far closer in "the cold light of day" between Doak and Fazio than would your personal scale, skewed as it is by your passion! ;)

My suggested (and somewhat ill formed) % system probably has no merit, and for a passionate one like you, gut feel would prevail.  But I still maintain that by many measures, golf courses are more alike than different.  

Many things make us like a golf course, but we are probably really only judging the details, but if we change a detail 1% we can change the feel of the course, just like Tiger making one more putt a round makes a huge difference in his paycheck.  But, its still a small % of details that must be changed to change perception.

But, I have already said that, and will say it no more.  I certainly respect other opinions on this discussion topic and enjoy the fact that you pulled it out for further discussion.  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2007, 10:01:51 PM »
"But I still maintain that by many measures, golf courses are more alike than different."  

Jeff
for what it's worth, I think you're absolutely right, and from where I sit almost all of them are "24 carats" because almost all are designed by good and dedicated craftsmen, and all are golf courses and not parking lots, and all provide many thousands with the peace and pleasures of the game. And if I chose to get real, real close and pick those courses apart, I'd probably find that ALL of them are about "10% clay". But it's a stupid man who tries to learn how something works by breaking it apart.    

If there IS a difference between courses (and whether it's actually a 10% or 5% difference seems like an unneccesary distinction), my guess/theory is that it has much less to do with differences in talent, dedication and knowledge than it does with differences in a fundamental choice. That's what I was trying to get at in my first post.

That choice -- and some get to make it and some don't, and some don't even realize there's a choice to be made -- is what aspect of the craft will be of primary importance to the craftsman. I don't mean to imply a value judgement here, as these are very personal choices, but if dedicated and skilled craftsman #1 wants most of all the satisfaction and renumeration of a job well done, he will likely get that; while if dedicated and skilled craftsman #2 wants most of all to see his deeply-held beliefs about what constitutes excellence in his craft made manifest, he will likely get that too -- and the products that these two fine craftsmen produce, though both based on all the same principles, will nonetheless be different.

Peter        

Tom_Doak

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 01:04:16 PM »
Jeff:

I just thought of another take on this topic.

With 20 years' experience, I think I am significantly better at building golf courses than I was when I started.  Not so much more creative, as more practiced.

By extension your 10% theory means it is only possible for anyone to get 10% better over time.  Do you really think that's all we can improve?

George Pazin

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2007, 05:24:18 PM »
Jeff, I think we miss each other's points! :)

I'll try to re-explain mine:

There is obviously a great deal that is the same about almost every golf course - 18 holes, 18 greens, 18 teeing areas, presumably bunkering on the course, etc. And I'm sure there are a lot of things I wouldn't even think of, not being an architect, like drainage, irrigation, etc.

So that's why your number can be as small as it is. Heck, it probably is smaller.

What I'm saying is that I think there is way more variation in the minor details than you are allowing for. And if those minor details can cause such drastic differences in opinions on the course, then is it accurate to call the difference in design only 3% or 5% or whatever?

Just out of curiosity, can you elaborate on what some of the many similarities between designs are?

P.S. Tom MacWood would tell you Ross's bunkers are more understated than Mackenzie's only because of mis-guided restoration efforts. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2007, 07:00:42 PM »
George,

We can argue all day about whether human passion over reacts in direct proportion to the measured differences.  (That is a good thing, I think) I guess you are saying perception is reality, which in politics and other arenas is probably true for all practical purposes.  

I think I have covered the basics of scale (size of greens, bunkers, width of fw corridors, etc.), and feature location that are similar between gca's.

As to Ross bunkers, I think we could go back to the old photos before restorations and I would have the same opinions.  I characterize the "typical" Ross bunker as sort of slug or Loch Ness monster shaped - it seemed like he made more linear bunkers, many of which had a fatter end (the body) a pinch (the neck) and a small head on many of his bunkers.  MacKenzie was much more free flowing, with more a typical bunker having 3-5 distinct capes and bays, with long noses varying in length from 15-45', and width and angle always just a little different from bay to bay.

Both could suffer from poor rebuilding. The magic of a Ross bunker was that it wasn't a perfect dog bone that many hack designers or greens committees changed it into.  MacKenzie bunkers had far more shape overall, plus more edge detail.  Most of those were destroyed through changed by reducing the details around the edge, while the basic framework might stay the same.  Think of Augusta No. 10 - still the same shape, but far less detailed than in days past.  Still a nice bunker though.

Tom,

Interesting point. Is it possible that you might have improved 20% and the rest of us 10%?    
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2007, 07:14:33 PM »
I think I have covered the basics of scale (size of greens, bunkers, width of fw corridors, etc.), and feature location that are similar between gca's.

Actually, now that I read this, I think you may have covered it on the other thread, so I'm sorry I made you rehash it! Thanks for answering again.

At any rate, I can't seem to get my point across (it's not perception is reality, I hate when people say that), so I'll let you go in peace.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2007, 07:35:15 PM »
George,

I concede the details are different.  They are also unmeasureable, really.  Those differences, for whatever reason, are what makes gca such a fasincating subject worthy of study and debate.

I still say that much - not all - gca debate is (warning, another trite cliche is coming ) "Much ado about nothing."  Not, as Seinfeld would say, "that there is anything wrong with that!"

Hope that one doesn't offend! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2007, 08:03:08 AM »
I don't know how to answer the question since it has a numerical comparison ..... BUT I think we are all different in what we do....As most guys will tell you the first 90% of a course is no problem it is how you attend to detail in the last 10% that makes the difference.....and in that 10% you can make 100% difference...

Since many would consider me a fashion statement let me relate via clothing....
The large jean pant the Rappers wear, the khaki I wear and the pant that Ian Poulter wears are all within 10% of each other......I think mine are the norm..they think the same....yet mine probably have at least 10% more material(Ha)  
IMHO this website has around 10% that will admit to liking some of the "signature stuff" such as TF or JN..I even like some Rees J.  Yet I would prefer to play some of TD stuff such as PD or some of the older dead guy things.....BUT I REALIZE that for the majority of golfers they have never heard of Ballyneal or Bandon..they will...but for now the TFs and JNs are the bomb for them....
I think I know what Jeff is trying to say but I can't quantify....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2007, 08:13:13 AM »
Sean,

First, thanks and sorry about those Wings. I think youth prevailed.  TV ratings would have been better had the Wings and Rangers made it, but I think these two fast skating teams will produce some of the best finals in NHL history, and beg everyone to watch at least one game so the NBC ratings will get as big as at least a hot dog eating contest. It will be worth their time!

As to differences, I am not sure I even agree with myself, but is it any coincidence that PV is traditionally No. 1?  It truly does have a different hazard mindset and design than most courses where they are manufactured.  And, PB and CP have that damn mosquito pond next to them.  Other unique courses in my mind are the Irish Dunes courses.  AT one time, modern desert courses that highlighted rather than tamed the desert might have fit that mold.  

In other words, the course was put in a unique setting which was disturbed as little as possible, and that combination was hard to replicate elsewhere.  Once we tried to take golf to every area (and then every subdivision) the manufactured versions become too standard to really know the difference.

Do we as humans want to distinguish, and the differences are so little that we start injecting other elements - like the name of the designer - into our personal evaluations to create a difference in our own minds?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re:Agree or disagree with Jeff Brauer's bold statement
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2007, 01:25:11 PM »
Those differences, for whatever reason, are what makes gca such a fasincating subject worthy of study and debate.

This is more along the lines of what I meant.

Look at it this way -

Physiologically, humans are pretty much the same, under your broad definition. Yet there are some 5-6 billion unique individuals on the planet.

I suspect Matt Ward wouldn't sleep at nights if he thought I was less than 10% different than him.

 :)

Another bizarro analogy:

DNA has the 4 basic building blocks - I seem to recall A, C, T, G from basic bio, can't remember the specific names, something like Adenine, Cystecine, Thymine and Guanine - yet the many different combinations yield billions of different people. Even identical twins have different personalities.

Maybe it's as simple as this: your perceived "10% difference" in design seems to be a huge difference to you, whereas to me, 10% difference doesn't sound like enough, in terms of the end result. I guess pure subjectivity in feelings is at play.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04