[Jay Flemma]

I hope this terribly sad event and horrible loss doesn't trigger a lawsuit against the designer of Pala Mesa.  Neither Mountain Golf nor golf course architecture are the cause.

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/6839910

Here is the course website.  I had never heard of it.

http://www.palamesa.com/Golf.aspx?id=layout#

[David Stamm]

This is amzing to me. It's been awhile since I've played there, but there isn't a cliff around the 2nd hole. Now I can see this happening on the back nine, there are some harry spots around some of the cart paths. I just drove by this course an hour ago. And I don't think this has been the first time this has happened here. I do remember a while back someone getting hurt or killed on the back nine years ago.

[SPDB]

 Neither Mountain Golf nor golf course architecture are the cause.

Jay,
How do you know that?

[Forrest Richardson]

According to some limited research, "Dick Rossen was the first to redesign this course, followed by Ted Robinson in 1984."

Cart accidents are the worst in golf. I know, I get calles every month about lawsuits. Most are from cart-related accidents.

The golf course architect rarely — if ever — knows in advance the type and performance of golf carts. And, certainly not the rules, regulations and mainetnance protocol at play. Does the cart that will be used have governors, weekly brake maintenance, is it gas or electric?

Usually engineers design paths in steeper grades. At least that is what our firm does in the way of policy.

[Andy Troeger]

The way the article was written made me wonder if the fellow didn't pass out or have something happen that made him lose control...sounds like he went quite a distance in the wrong direction before reaching the cliff.

Certainly prayers go out to his family, its a sad situation.

[Bob_Huntley]

This also happened some years ago at Pebble Beach on the eighth hole. Drove the cart over the cliff in the fog.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

This also happened some years ago at Pebble Beach on the eighth hole. Drove the cart over the cliff in the fog.

Bob

Bob,

Isn't that what caused PBC to reconstruct the cart paths with high curbs and institute a cart path only rule ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

It had a lot to do with it.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

This got me to thinking...with the litigious nature of the U.S., how long before 6-10 at Pebble will have a chain link fence running along the length of those holes.

Or 4, 10, and 13 at Pacific Dunes.

Or <insert course here with unprotected holes that run up next to the edge of a severe cliff face.>

[Kirk Gill]

At least they don't have to worry about carts at Pacific Dunes.

What about at Cape Kidnappers !

[Jay Flemma]

There's a solution Kirk...walking only.  This poor man's family...

[Jim Franklin]

It sounds like he had a heart attack to me.

[Jerry Kluger]

Most people just don't appreciate how dangerous golf carts can be.  A friend's 5 year old son fell out of a cart and suffered a fractured skull.  What about the guys slapping back a whole bunch of beers during a round.  My club allows carts in the parking lot - car vs. cart - cart loses.

[Jay Flemma]

...and Jim Engh is missing a kidney because he crashed his first cart when he was barely two years old:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=412

“I crashed my first golf cart when I was two years old.” Jim’s dad was a John Deere dealer who sold to course builders and helped build a local nine hole course, so Jim was on golf courses since leaving the cradle. “Well, Dad was playing and I hopped behind the wheel and hit the gas. I still don’t know how I could have done it, I was so small. The cart rolled over on top of me.”

It was a frightening crash. The cart crushed one of Jim’s kidneys and his life was in the balance for several days. “I was lucky though. I got up from my deathbed.” To this day, he still only had one kidney, he notes grimly.

[Kalen Braley]

We do have one example we can point to on this, and that is the holes that slid into the ocean at Olympic.  

Were any studies done prior to building to suggest that land was at risk from a landslide?  Did Donald Trump have studies done on his course in Palos Verdes? Or is this even required when considering golf course placement?

[Jay Flemma]

 Neither Mountain Golf nor golf course architecture are the cause.

Jay,
How do you know that?

If you want to argue that it is the architect's fault - please, be my guest.

Kalen, I wonder if your exmaple might be different than what happened here?  I heard of no landslide...just a cart going over a cliff after it went off the paved cart path...

[rjsimper]

For the record, the nines at Pala Mesa were reversed maybe a year ago...so the 2nd hole is the former 11th...a hole with a very steep drop off to I-15 below.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Middlebury!  Trinity in the house!  Go NESCAC!

So that also explains the question above...thanks for the clarification Ryan.

[Kalen Braley]

 Neither Mountain Golf nor golf course architecture are the cause.

Jay,
How do you know that?

If you want to argue that it is the architect's fault - please, be my guest.

Kalen, I wonder if your exmaple might be different than what happened here?  I heard of no landslide...just a cart going over a cliff after it went off the paved cart path...

Jay,

Looking back on what I wrote, I wasn't clear that I was slightly shifting gears.

I was talking about what is done on sites close to cliffs that could suffer from a massive landslide.  I referenced what happened at Olympic and wondered where the responsiblility lies as it pertains to building golf holes on the edge of these cliffs.  For example how stable is the land beneath the 13th at PD or the 10th at PB...

[Jay Flemma]

Fair enough Kalen...but other than gross negligence and dereliction of duty, isn't it the right thing to do to NOT go after the designer?  Its bad for the game and bad for architecture...not to mention the poor architect that gets sued.

[Kalen Braley]

Jay,

I guess I'm just really asking a question here, because I'm not sure.  Should fault lie with the designer?  Or should it lie with a civil engineer of some sort who has done an analysis on the land?  Or should we just disregard it all and say you know what sh%& happens?

In the specific case of the man dying after falling, there doesn't appear to be any fault that lies with the designer.  I would think this could lie with the property owner, after all, isn't this where the buck stops?  I would equate this as me having home owner insurance that would include a scenario where someone accidently slipped down the stairs in my house and broke a leg.

As far as who usually ends up being the one sued?  Well that one probably follows the "golden rule"....

[David Stamm]

For the record, the nines at Pala Mesa were reversed maybe a year ago...so the 2nd hole is the former 11th...a hole with a very steep drop off to I-15 below.

Thanks Ryan. Now that makes sense. Yes, I can see how that would happen now. A terrible tragedy.

[Doug Wright]

Hey Middlebury!  Trinity in the house!  Go NESCAC!

OT--Hamilton here as well...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Many years ago I worked at a JN course in Tucson called la Paloma.
Built in the foothills above the city it had huge elevation changes that were a challenge getting equipment around the course...much less golf carts.
One Saturday morning in late fall we had an 8am shotgun. It was going to be a nice day but like so many in the high desert it was cold in the early morning. The cart paths were still wet from the night's irrigation and just as I finishing up on the 5th hole of the Ridge 9 out came the players. One part of the path, just above a huge canyon with well over a 100 foot drop, was still in the shade and the wet path had iced over. The two guys racing out had no idea and just as they started down the path they hit the ice and went into a spin headed right for the canyon edge. They spun off the path, across the DG landscaped area and were headed over the side backwards only to get hung up on a Palo Verde tree no more than 2 inches in diameter. It happened so fast; they were goners if they don't hit the tree. We pulled their cart out, and white as ghosts they headed on down the path knowing full well they came within inches of death.  

[Sean Leary]

Hey Middlebury!  Trinity in the house!  Go NESCAC!

OT--Hamilton here as well...

OT-- Bowdoin as well...NESCAC golf teams are the worst in the country if Simper and I make golf teams...

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