1970 Architects' Pecking Order

[JMEvensky]

Assume it's 1970(no fair using the benefit of hindsight) and you want to hire an architect to build your golf course.You have a very good piece of land and the budget is sufficient to build and maintain a very challenging course for a private golf club.There is no committee nor are you concerned with selling surrounding home sites.Whom would you call first?

Also,if anyone knows the then going rate for design fees,I'd be curious to know what each of the top architects would have charged back then.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Without hindsight I may first call Cornish.  Second may be Desmond Muirhead

[Tom_Doak]

JM:  There wasn't nearly as much pecking going on then as there is today.

The only designer's fee I know at the time is that of Geoff Cornish, who designed Sterling Farms Golf Course for the City of Stamford in 1970.  His fee was $1,000 to draw the plans and $1,000 more if they wanted him to make construction oversight visits -- I don't know how many visits you got for the extra thousand.

[CHrisB]

Pete Dye, assuming knowledge of his work at The Golf Club and Harbour Town in the previous 3 years, although RTJ was likely at the top of many people's lists in 1970.

[JMEvensky]

I think I might have framed the question poorly.What I'm trying to figure out is what options would have been available back then.

My suspicion is that very few people took seriously the choice of architect-perhaps deciding solely on the fee.The only way to really judge what was out there would have been first-hand observation.I think that might narrow the number of "experts" to people travelling to play high-level amateur tournaments.

I've always been curious as to what were options "B" or "C" at my place.Nobody seems to be able to remember the particulars.

[John Nixon]

Around central Indiana I think Bill Diddel would have been on the list. He was pretty old by then, but still doing courses. He did the course in my neighborhood, Brookshire, as a private course in the early 70s. Opened in '73 or '74 I think.

[John Foley]

What about Joe Lee & Dick Wilson?

Side note wans't it around that time that RTJ started to expand to get Rees & Bobby in the buiz?

[Tom_Doak]

Shivas:

I was nine in 1970 and hadn't been on a golf course yet, so not such a good deal.

[Jeff_Brauer]

RTJ was still king.  Can't recall exactly when Rees and Jr. hit the pavement as independents.

I don't know if Wilson was still active in 1970.  His protogees like Joe Lee were highly thought of.    

George Fazio had to be in the biz then.

Pete Dye had made a splash with Harbor Town that very year, I think, but maybe 1969.

I have the impression that there were far more regionalism in the biz back then, with the locals being hired more often.  Not everything was a signature product.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The only designer's fee I know at the time is that of Geoff Cornish, who designed Sterling Farms Golf Course for the City of Stamford in 1970.  His fee was $1,000 to draw the plans and $1,000 more if they wanted him to make construction oversight visits -- I don't know how many visits you got for the extra thousand.

Could that be right?  When I got in the biz in 1977, KN ( a similar level gca) tried to get $100K, but settled for $65-75K, with 80% for plans and 20% for field visits.  Even after inflation, and presuming a very low fee structure, Geoff would have had to have been $10K and $10K, no?  

I also recall them building two courses in 1979-80 for under a million, whereas Kemper Lakes and Forest Preserve National were over $2 Mil and most were $1-2 Million courses.

Fees were often calculated by % back then, at 7-9% meaning that the $65-100 K was about right for a decent design fee.

[Doug Bolls]

I play on a course designed by Joe Lee (with some input from Ben Hogan) in 1975.  We re-did the greens about 5 years ago, but other than that it is just like it was back then.
It fits the land very well and for the most part looks like a natural part of the surrounding landscape.  Bunkers in the right places, each par 3 takes a different club, no par 4's less than 400 from the blues.
I would say he was a good choice.

[Ian Andrew]

Wilson died in 1965, that I know.

I thought "the boys" branched out around 1974. I think the first course was called Arcadian Shores in Myrtle Beach, becaue Dad and I went to play that one specifically.

Isn't Trent the obvious selection at that point?

[David Stamm]

If I could've talked him out of leaving Ireland, how about Eddie Hackett? Donald Steel might've been another.


The obvious ones have been mentioned already.

[Kris Spence]

Ellis Maples did considerable work (70 cs) in the Carolinas and Virginia as well as George Cobb.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I honestly don't remember where I got the info on Geoff's design fee for Sterling Farms -- maybe from Brian Silva.  But Geoff was sort of the Eddie Hackett of New England, he wanted public golf to succeed and he didn't charge very much for it.

The only other design fee I know which is a shocker -- Pete Dye's fee for the TPC at Sawgrass was $80,000 in 1979.

[Forrest Richardson]

One of the biggest names in the west was Jack Snyder. His fees in the 1970-s were about $10,000 to $20,000.

Wailea Blue & Orange, Arroyo del Oso, Kaanapali South, Cave Creek and others.

Brauer hits the mark: You would have hired RTJ, Sr. if you could reach hime and afford the fee.

[RT]

Perhaps a little late in life, but Red Lawrence.