[Patrick_Mucci]

If not, why have they fallen so far out of favor ?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick,
I see no correlation whatsoever between modern irrigation systems and fewer centerline fwy bunkers.

[Dave_Miller]

If not, why have they fallen so far out of favor ?

Patrick:
I don't really know but on an intellectual level that doesn't seem to make much sense.
Hope all is well
Best
Dave

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
Your question assumes that centerline bunkers are less in favor...what is making you think that? I would say that I've seen more new courses built with centerline bunkers/hazards in the last few years than in the period before that.

[Chris Cupit]

I think many people today would object to a bunker "In the middle of the fairway"  It would not seem "fair" to many!!

Michael Riley who re-did my course went and added a center bunker on one of his courses in Atlanta--Crooked Creek GC.
The bunker is slightly off center in the "middle" of a large/wide fairway.  The bunker is about 285-290 out and forces the good player to play left, lengthen the hole and have a worse angle or thread it along the right trees and OB and shorten the hole and open up the green.

Of course, he is getting some complaints from "good" players who object to hitting it right down the middle into a bunker!!

Mike also really likes middle bunkers that influence the lay up on the second shots of par fives.  I think middle bunkers are great as well but in the minds of many "golfers" today a middle bunker is UNFAIR

[Mark_Fine]

Sad to say it is "fairness" or the pursuit of it    Most modern courses are meant to play down the middle where as many of the great old classics were meant to play down the edges.  Today, homes line many of the edges so play needs to be forced to the middle  

[Andy Troeger]

I will say that I only like centerline bunkers when there is a fair amount of width to the fairway as a whole. I've seen them put in a few holes that did not have much width and did not care for them as the only play they encouraged was a lay-up short of them.

There needs to be some reason to challenge them either by trying to carry them or hitting the fairway beside them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I see no correlation whatsoever between modern irrigation systems and fewer centerline fwy bunkers.

Don,

Wouldn't most centerline bunkers be wet most of the time ?
Especially when the golf course needed syringing ?

Wouldn't it also cause a problem with centerline irrigation systems where the main feeder line runs down the middle of the fairway ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Your question assumes that centerline bunkers are less in favor...what is making you think that?

My inability to come across many.
[/color]

I would say that I've seen more new courses built with centerline bunkers/hazards in the last few years than in the period before that.

That's interesting.
I've found just the opposite.

However, the one course I found, which seemed to have an abundance of centerline bunkers was Wild Horse, a golf course I fell in love with.

Hidden Creek has a number of centerline bunkers also.

But, I draw a clear connection in style between C&C's work and the work done by the fellows who crafted Wild Horse.[/color]

[Adam Clayman]

I agree that even Hurzdan & Fry have incorporated the sporadic centerline bunker, in recent efforts (as well as others. Jack included.).

I finally made it up to Rawlins Wy. and I saw an attempt to use this theme throughout the course. I felt that after awhile their placement, along with their size and shape, were to constant to be considered random and by the end of the round felt repetitive.

Of course, the best use in recent times...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick,
I see no correlation whatsoever between modern irrigation systems and fewer centerline fwy bunkers.

Don,

Wouldn't most centerline bunkers be wet most of the time ?
Especially when the golf course needed syringing ?

If they are drained properly and decent sand is used I can't imagine why they would be any wetter than a greenside bunker. I don't syringe fwys near as often as greens, and I try not to syringe anything all that much so from my experience I still don't see any correlation.

Wouldn't it also cause a problem with centerline irrigation systems where the main feeder line runs down the middle of the fairway ?

Mike Nuzzo and I designed the irrigation system at our new course here in TX and we have quite a few centerline bunkers. I flagged all the heads and mainline routes. If there was a bunker in the way of the mainline we just moved the mainline a bit, which wasn't hard as most mainlines were close to one side or the other and rarely ran down the middle.
If a head ended up in a bunker when we flagged our triangulated pattern, then we just cheated it a bit to one side or the other. If a bunker was in the way of a lateral line then we just went around. It really, really isn't an issue with irrigation installation if you've got someone in the field who can direct the process.

[Norbert P]

No, they are not rare because of irrigation.  In fact, single centerline irrigation design is rare in newer designs. Most have two or three lines as manifolds. They can easily skirt fairway bunkers.

They are relegated to novelty because most golfers are annoyed by them.  "A good, dumb shot punished?  God should reward our meekish plodding, not test our ire." (?)*  (If only John Low's book would become a bestseller!)


* (?) = sarcasm

[Mark_Fine]

“No hole is a good hole unless it has one or more hazards in a direct line of the hole”. - A. Mackenzie

“The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct and to make a good hole you must break up that line to create the line of charm”.  - M. Behr

[Joe Hancock]

“No hole is a good hole unless it has one or more hazards in a direct line of the hole”. - A. Mackenzie

“The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct and to make a good hole you must break up that line to create the line of charm”.  - M. Behr

But Mark...couldn't a diagonal/ crossing contour of sufficient severity do the trick for either of those quotes?

Joe

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
Sure it could and I think Alister and Max would agree    But variety is a key ingredient of great golf architecture.  
Mark

[Joe Hancock]

Mark,

Agreed, I was merely making a distinction, as the thread is fairly specific towards bunkers.

I'm not sure if irrigation had anything to do with center bunkers limited use, however.

Joe

[Pat Brockwell]

It was the UN-AUTOMATED irrigation system that put the centerline bunker out of favor. Those old systems ran a main down the middle and had quick couplers in a single row, there were few choices on nozzles and the only consideration on distance of throw for your water was "how far can I get it to go?"  Today there is no excuse from an irrigation design standpoint not to do just about anything, including vertical turf on bunkers with subsurface drip (not that I think it's a good idea).  

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest and I are planning to restore some centerline bunkers at Mira Vista G&CC in Berkeley, CA.  They will add significantly to the strategy of the holes and make golfers think.  That is something that is not done enough these days.  

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Apparently your abilities of observation are getting worse and worse.

I'd say there have probably been far more bunkers built on centerlines and within fairway areas built in the last 20 years than at any time during the Golden Age or perhaps even in the entire history of golf course architecture.

[Rick Shefchik]

I think the biggest issue with centerline bunkers is that they tend to make one side or the the other the obvious choice. That's certainly been my experience with split fairways -- 90 percent of the time I wonder why anyone would chose Fairway B over Fairway A. Since I don't see as many centerline bunkers, I can't say they dictate strategy quite as clearly as the split fairways, but it is true on the few holes that come to mind.

Kudos to the architect who can use centerline bunkers in a way that makes either option, if not equally sound, at least viable.

[David_Madison]

The Reserve Club at St. James Plantation in NC, a one-year old Michael Nicklaus course, has true centerline bunkers right in the middle of the primary landing areas on four holes. Can't think of a course I've played with more. In spite of near-drought conditions in the region, the course seemed irrigated just fine.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I think we have to look at the history of irrigation and put it in context.  Center line bunkers probably did disappear as irrigation was added to golf courses.  Just as trees were planted in the rough at the same time.  

The initial addition of irrigation was completeted by adding big single row 'cannons' to the center of the golf course.  This caused the centers to be green.  The high volume of water spewed out by these cannons caused extensive washing and erosion in center line bunkers.  We want our courses green so the bunkers disappeared.  

Now enter the modern era of computer and radio contolled irrigation.  The heads spray much less volume in smaller droplets and the computer can control dozens of micro climates on the golf course which both cause less erosion and washing.  The result seems to be the return of center line bunkers, the reduction in trees along the edges and a broadening of golf courses.  

We are also seeing a much greater use of grass varieties and textures which in part are also a result of the superintendents ability to control the irrigation system.  

The answer to the question would be yes the advent of centerline irrigation caused the reduction in centerline bunkers, and the improvement of modern irrigaton has promoted their return.

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