[Matt_Ward]

I had the opportunity to watch the gals play this past week at the Sybase LPGA event at UMCC in Clifton, NJ -- my hometown.

During the end of the 3rd round officials from the LPGA placed on the clock the final group -- Lorena Ochoa and Sarah Lee. What was utterly amazing was the inability to fully understand the pervasive slow play crawl that infects not only the LPGA Tour but golf in general.

I witnessed plenty of group playing this week and it became painfully obvious that far too many players are in their own zone and they will play when they are ready to play and not a moment before. The complete breakdown of golf administrators only sends the message to the masses that slow play is OK and will be tolerated.

Laura Davies hit the nail squarely on the head -- it's time to get truly serious about slow play. The gals I witnessed -- most notably Morgan Pressel, are so absorbed in their own situation that they are completely oblivious as to what slow play does to golf.

I know when I attend this year's US Open at Oakmont the same situation will occur with routine 5-plus hour rounds.

I don't doubt that tournament situations are stressful but clearly the main organizations have done little in this regard and it has caused, to a large extent, the general erosion of potential players from the game because of the time factor that is wasted when playing.

Forgive the soapbox --  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I think telecasts of the PGA Tour have had a terrible influence on every day play.

Golfers want to imitate the PGA Tour Pros and there is something to be said for the theory that, if the PGA Tour Pros are doing it, or using it, it must be the way to go.

When some indicate that golf isn't growing you have to examine the culture we live in.  Young parents don't want to be on a golf course for 5+ hours, they want to tee off early and get home to their families.  Teeing off at 7 or 8 and being done by 10 or 11 and home before noon has appeal, and can satisfy all war camps.  Teeing off at 7 or 8 and not being home until 1 or 2 or later diminishes the appeal and creates strife.

The culture of golf has changed over the last 50 years.

When you mentioned that the LPGA Pros are in their own world, so is almost every other golfer and the monkey see, monkey do syndrome is pretty much systemic.

I can't think of a reason why rounds shouldn't be completed in 3.5 hours or less.

The R&A, USGA, PGA, regional and state GA's along with local clubs have allowed the pace to slow considerably.  They have to be the catalyst to speed it up.

In addition, it seems that letting a faster group play through is rarer than a TEPaul birdie these days.

Slow play is taking the FUN out of the game.

[Don_Mahaffey]

C'mon you guys, the players aren't slow, it's got to be the folks managing the golf course, or maybe the tee time intervals, or maybe the architecture, but it's been proven right here on GCA that slow play is not caused by slow players

[Jesse Jones]

I've said it in the past and I say it now. Who's going to be the bad guy?
The situation with slow play is so out of control, that even if the governing bodies started hammering the best in the game, folks at the CCFAD(or almost anywhere else) are still going to take thier good sweet time to play.
Who's going to say bye-bye?
I really believe there has to be a good business model out there that could promise rounds in 4:30 or less.
But owners are dying for folks to play thier tracks.
But, somebody has to start bouncing these folks from our golf courses.
Everybody talks a good game about curbing slow play..
But who's going to step up.
As my father once said to me..
"Son, you need to cross the bridge.
I said, what bridge ?
His reply, "the bridge between what is said and what is done.

[Dan_Callahan]

Other sports saw what slow play was doing to the excitement of the game and made adjustments. The NFL, NBA, and NCAA basketball all put in play clocks to keep the action moving. Obviously, you couldn't have shot clocks around the course in a golf tournament, but you could tighten up the amount of time aplayer has to hit a shot and do a much better job enforcing the rule.

[Bill_Yates]

Don,
I'm glad you agree with me, slow play does have to be in part fault of "the folks managing the golf course."  And in the case of the Matt's example, it's the LPGA Tour.

Of course players can and do play slowly.  They will play as slowly as "the folks managing the course" will let them.

[Chris Cupit]

Players ARE SLOWER!

I spent two days as the first tee rules official/starter at the NCAA East regionals at GC of GA.

Tee times started at 7:00 AM
Threesomes of the best college kids in the country
We alternated between 9 and 10 minute intervals throughout the day.

We sent the first wave of ten tee times from 7:00 to about 8:30 and shut the tee down as the play "crossed over".

First group turned in 2 hours 25 minutes

First group finished in over 5 hours.

On the second day, despite having plenty of "crossover" dead time, the afternoon times were delayed 40 minutes since the late morning groups had not yet made the turn!!

We had shuttles for the players on the holes were there were long walks.  Greens were slowed down to stimp at 11.  

The NCAA used a flag system to let players know they were on the clock and some players were penalized for slow play, BUT college golf is absolutely PATHETIC.

College coaches should recruit, get practice areas set up, have the uniforms and equipment ready and then just DRIVE THE DAMN VAN!  They have no business being on the golf course.  They contribute at least an extra 20 minutes to every round.  These kids can play--leave 'em alone!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Callahan,

I don't think the answer lies in micro managing every shot for every player.

The responsibility it the players.

Let them tee off, tell them that they have to finish in no more than X time and that they can't finish more than Y minutes behind the group in front of them and penalize the ENTIRE group if they fail to do so.

The problem with golf is:

Once the first group plays in 4.5 hours, the group behind them can't play in 3.8 hours, every group behind them is doomed to a 4.5 hour round, or more.

Therefore, time them out, time them in, take the differential and the relationship to the group ahead of them and act accordingly, and you'll get the pace of play sped up in a heart beat.

Bill Yates,

I'd differentiate between the people who manage the golf course and the people who administer tournaments or the play of the golf course.

I view those who manage the golf course as the green crew, and while the course set up can influence the pace of play, I think that those administering play can have a greater influence.  I think it's THEIR responsibility to insure that rounds are played in a timely fashion.

The question is:  Do they have the will to do so ?

[Voytek Wilczak]

At Muirfield, I thought that my twosome played fast, until I saw a couple of members closing in on us in no time.

We let them play through, which they gratefully acknowledged and continued at their torrid pace.

In the UK and Ireland, they play fast, man.

I think that's in the spirit of the game, not some bloated 5 hour rounds like they do in the US.

[Marty Bonnar]

Is there a correlation between how much somebody has paid to play golf and the time thenceforth required to play?

I'm wondering if some folks might think: "Well, I paid $400 for this whole 'experience', so I'm damn well going to enjoy it for as long as possible."

Is that not an understandable reaction?

Our average saturday morning round might be all about getting around quickly, but Joe Corporate wants the 'Day Out', doesn't he?

I HATE getting held up, but I 'console' myself OFTEN by thinking: "Okay, five hours here is still better than five hours at work/gardening/shopping...isn't it"?

yours, (normally in 3and1/2 hours)
the FBD.

[Bill_Yates]

Patrick,
I think of the course Director of Golf, GM, Head Pro, etc as those who manage the golf course on a day-to-day basis and they are the ones who establish the management practices and policies for managing play on the course.

When the tour comes to town, the tour takes over those responsibilities for the week.  They then determine what they will allow in terms of slow play by what they will tolerate.

Now to answer your question for both regular play and for tournament play, "Do they (those who have management control over either situation) have the will?"  If the answer were "Yes!" this thread would not have been started.

[Tim Taylor]

Played Saturday at Cannon Ridge outside Fredericksburg, VA. It's a Dean Beman/Bobby Weed course that was designed, according to Beman, for fast play. It says so right on their web site

Played as a twosome behind another twosome amidst a sea of foursomes and finished in 4 hours on the dot. Not bad at all for a cart ball course with at least 9 forced carries, some narrow corridors, and a slope of 140 from the men's tees.

In thinking through why this is possible, I think the biggest thing is a compact routing with very short green-to-tee distances. In many places a cart path is shared between adjacent fairways.

Oh yeah, there were omnipresent rangers too.

Tim

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I think of the course Director of Golf, GM, Head Pro, etc as those who manage the golf course on a day-to-day basis and they are the ones who establish the management practices and policies for managing play on the course.

Bill,

Ask yourself this question.

Is it fair of a club to ask that the Director of golf or the Head Pro get invovled in the policing of slow play on the golf course ?

Remember, the members who they're admonishing, pushing, policing or penalizing are the same members who they depend upon to buy merchandise or take lessons.

That's putting them in a NO WIN situation.

The reason that I like my system is that it removes the human element.  It avoids confrontatioins and the creation of ill will, which can adversely affect the DOG or HP's ability to make a living.[/color]

[Dan_Callahan]

Patrick,

I agree with you. I was only responding to the need for enforcing pace of play in professional events and other tournament play. The fact that nothing has been done to speed things up on the Tour shows that the PGA/LPGA isn't serious about it. In other professional sports, they see a problem and correct it. Golf is a dinosaur in this respect and seems incapable of addressing problems that seem obvious to all of us.

[Bill_Yates]

Patrick,
Of course it's fair to ask the people who run the course to actually run the course.  Hell, if they were out on the course in the middle of a busy day, they might even make a few improvements.  When I work with a course, it is precisely the GM, Director of Golf, etc. that are out there with me.  

At one recent program at a 4,000 acre development with two eighteen hole golf clubs, the CEO of the property, the CFO and the President of the Board participated with me out on the course to better understand the problems and experience the recommended solutions first hand.  As a result, the value of their club memberships and property will go up because they will rewrite their operating procedures and train their staff in order to consistently deliver a high quality, high-value golfing product.

Management needs to fully understand all of the factors that impact the pace of play on their course, put in place appropriate and objective controls and set policy that they feel they can enforce. Then and only then can your idea of putting the responsibility back on the players be effective.

Believe me, you have to effectively treat both sides of the equation in order to gain control.  Management has to effectively do their job and the players have to do theirs. This is true of a club or of a tour event.

In part, the reason the slow play problem continues is that 99% of the search for the cure is spent on only 50% or less of the problem.

[Joe Hancock]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but aren't all Tours playing twosomes or threesomes, based on which round it is? These aren't even foursome rounds we're talking about....

Joe

[Pat Brockwell]

It's really hard to expand your payroll for extra marshalls on the course in order to piss off patrons.  I've tried many diferent approaches from more agressive marshalling to placing forecaddies on blind shots to golfer education but it is a problem that requires a constant effort with few if any results beyond disgruntled customers. A club situation may be different where the members are more captive, but for public play it has to come down on the players to try to pick up the pace.  I think if the PGA and USGA could come up with rules that worked it would go a long way towards setting the image of how golf should be played, but in my experience doing something for the good of the game isn't really a priority of either group.

[Craig Sweet]

At Saratoga, the state owned course in NY, you sign a form before you go out that says you'll complete the round in 4 hours and 15 minutes, or something, and they will actually come out and move you to the place on the course you should be if you fall behind...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Yates,

I"d agree with you with respect to the GM.
And the Board,

But, placing an employee whose revenue depends on the very members he's confronting about slow play wouldn't seem like a good idea.

I know of clubs that tried to make the Pro Staff the policemen

In those cases, alienated members NEVER bought another item or took another lesson, and frictions were created.

It's a delicate issue, especially if the Pro Staff is new to the club.

The timed method would appear to be the best since it's non-confrontational and based on simple math.  Time out, time in, the differential in conjunction with the allowable gap between the group in front.

The pro and his staff need the support of the membership when it comes to purchasing goods and services, hence alienating members or cliques of members isn't good for business.

[Rick Shefchik]

I blame Bob Rotella -- even though he repeatedly stresses that your pre-shot routine should not unduly hold up play.

The problem is, any pre-shot routine will hold up play more than simply walking to your shot, looking at your target and hitting the ball.

Rotella had the best of intentions, but his teachings have been perverted. It's time for him to admit culpability and prescribe a solution. Hell, people obviously listen to him.
 

[Bill_Yates]

Patrick,
Private clubs are a bit different.  Since they have a captive audience, the membership and committees pretty well self police and club policy is set by the committees and implemented by the club GM and his/her staff.  So, when we work with clubs, we involve key committee members to participate in all of the training along with the staff.  We do it for the same reasons and get the same excellent results.  Again, we are treating both sides of the equation.

And with the participation of influential committee members, the staff is fully supported, as new policies and practices are announced and explained by the committees to the general membership.  As a result, the staff members do not need to act like policemen nor are they hung out to dry.  

For private clubs, membership value is a huge issue, as no one wants to pay golf club dues and get a public course experience.

[Shane Sullivan]

My best experience was at St Andrews (old, jubillee and new).  We played there in no more than 3 hours as a two ball - never hurrying, never slow.

The marshalling was very impressive.  Kind gentlemen having a quick chat who simply made you aware that they were keeping an eye on things.

I also dispute the criticism of the preshot routine - I believe the important thing is to be prepare and at your ball ready to play whether in turn or not (if it is safe).  As my husband always (I means always!) tells me - it is quicker to hit one good shot that two bad ones.

I have been amazed in China watching how much having caddies can slow things down.  I have seen people get the caddy to tee up the ball, mark it on the green and line it up, as well as retrieve it from the hole should it go in. I kid you not!

[Brent Hutto]

The problem is, any pre-shot routine will hold up play more than simply walking to your shot, looking at your target and hitting the ball.

Rick,

What if your preshot routine consists of:

1) Walk to the shot,
2) Look at the target
3) Hit the ball

and nothing more than that? Hard to see how that would hold up play at all but it's not inconsistent with what Bob Rotella teaches for full swings.

The bottom line of Rotella's belief is that your routine should be the same every time and that it should prepare you for the shot at hand. The problem is that in virtually every example Rotella elaborates in his books, the routine he describes has several more steps than that.

But you're right, if he would write an article for Golf Digest or a chapter in his next book about the benefits of simple, quick and unelaborate routines it would be very influential.

[Craig Sweet]

I watched a guy take his practice swing...step behind the ball and aim for a minute...step back up to the ball and take another practice swing and then do a series of what looked like squat thrust pr deep knoee bends as part of his "waggle"...followed by total non-movement, finishing in a mighty chop at the ball...

[bstark]

"To prove a point, I hit putter again from 205.  Knocked it pin-high in the right rough, putted through the rough from there onto the green and....  "

That's why I love to play with Shivas.....

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()