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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2007, 08:50:17 PM »
I am sorry if I have missed something, but the ASGCA Life Cycle Chart does not single out USGA greens specs as I can see.

What it reads is:  "Several factors can weigh into the decision to replace greens: accumulation of layers on the surface of the original construction, the desire to convert to new grasses and response to changes in the game from an architectural standpoint (like the interaction between green speed and hole locations)."

http://www.asgca.org/design/pubs/lifecycle.pdf

And, the stated 15-30 year lifespan. The chart is actually quite good. And, my 26 years experience sheds light that it is about right, at least so far as a chart can be good for a range of regions and conditions.

Ryan — The following quote shows your knack to post knee-jerk thoughts: "Jeff, may we look no further than Oakmont where the greens have been pretty much untouched for over 100 years, w/o subsurface drainage."

No sub-surface? Yes, agreed. But, in the early 1950s Jack Snyder re-built No. 8 and also stripped several greens and replaced the top later of mucky Allegheny River sand that had been used to topdress greens for the previous 40+ years. Also, the Fownes were known to both expand and adjust greens — and to add bunkers that significantly changed the green's transition to those bunkers. I think half of your statement is well crafted...the other half is urband legend.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 11:36:02 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2007, 11:22:13 PM »
I still say the common denominator in any of these courses mentioned with good greens is "GOOD SUPT".......if a course has to rebuild every 20 years at say $800,000.....that's another $40,000 you could pay a supt each year and be ahead.........OK.....I AM NOT ARGUING TYPES OF GREEN CONSTRUCTION ANYMORE....hire the best you can find.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ryan Farrow

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2007, 12:16:18 AM »
I am sorry if I have missed something, but the ASGCA Life Cycle Chart does not single out USGA greens specs as I can see.

What it reads is:  "Several factors can weigh into the decision to replace greens: accumulation of layers on the surface of the original construction, the desire to convert to new grasses and response to changes in the game from an architectural standpoint (like the interaction between green speed and hole locations)."

http://www.asgca.org/design/pubs/lifecycle.pdf

And, the stated 15-30 year lifespan. The chart is actually quite good. And, my 26 years experience sheds light that it is about right, at least so far as a chart can be good for a range of regions and conditions.

Ryan — The following quote shows your knack to post knee-jerk thoughts: "Jeff, may we look no further than Oakmont where the greens have been pretty much untouched for over 100 years, w/o subsurface drainage."

No sub-surface? Yes, agreed. But, in the early 1950s Jack Snyder re-built No. 8 and also stripped several greens and replaced the top later of mucky Allegheny River sand that had been used to topdress greens for the previous 40+ years. Also, the Fownes were known to both expand and adjust greens — and to add bunkers that significantly changed the green's transition to those bunkers. I think half of your statement is well crafted...the other half is urband legend.

Forrest, thanks for the information, I wish I knew more about the exact history of Oakmont. Question, isn’t stripping the greens of old sand basically in the same league as drill and fill? Albeit it will take longer for the sand to be replaced but the quality will improve on a yearly basis and can not be fairly be categorized as major reconstruction, just solid maintenance practices. With that said, if current maintenance practices are used why would these greens ever need replaced? What is to stop them from lasting another 100 years without major reconstruction?

Jeff, I understand what you are trying to say and why you have tried to hammer me on my comments but that figure for greens is not only outrageous IMO but many others who know a whole lot more about the subject than I do. Trust me, I try not to make completely bogus statements and I don't have an agenda to attack the ASGCA, but the first time I saw that list at the industry show I really couldn’t believe my eyes. I asked around myself only to find many others who completely disagree with that figure.

Can I get your word that I will be free from attacks from here on out :)

Tom, two words, fish mouth. You will see next week, although I take no credit for the idea but I did shape it.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2007, 12:23:58 AM »
Ryan — Stripping is more intensive because it replaces all of the sand at one time. Although I was not there (not that old!   :-\ ) at the time, Jack's description was that layers of muck had taken over many greens and the very silty river sand needed to be replaced. From descriptions I would guess the stripping to be a few inches. No. 8 was completely re-built. Jack designed a new putting surface based on Lew Worsham's thoughts on how best to raise the right side to hold a long, running shot that was well hit. According to Jack, Worsham had said that he only hit that green 25% of the time...members even less!

By the way, jack added no organics to No. 8 — just pure sand.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ryan Farrow

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2007, 12:55:26 AM »
#8 seems like it has a very intriguing history. From what I heard it also had the worst drainage before the sub-drainage was installed. I suppose this had more to do with the relative flatness compared the other greens on the courses, still one of my favorites there and by far the best par 3. Which brings up another question, do more severely contoured greens have a better lifespan because of their ability to move surface water off the green fast?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2007, 09:53:52 AM »
Let's not forget that Art Hills rebuilt a few greens - exactly how and how much I do not know- at least according the the old Open programs (and the new one)  In my mind, if a course like Oakmont achieves sand greens the slow way by drill and fill, they have still modified their greens structure, even without modifiying the design, which of course, was the intent!

ryan,  

Good question on better surface drainage prolonging green life and I would have to think so, whether or not we could ever meausre that - like on one course with one flat and one highly contoured green built at one time, with the former going bad first.

no point in arguing further, but again, I say that these things generally mirror my experience, if for no other reason than the cost pressures to underbuild a golf course are just too great.  My current angst is cart paths- we are finding lots of 4' concrete paths with fiber mesh instead of rebars breaking up far before they should have.  And yet, on new courses, finding no owner will pay the extra $0.75 sf for the rebar that will make them last.  Part of the point of those guidelines is to start discussion with clubs about not repeating that past, and to build to higher standards in the first place.

Forrest,

I actually copied one of my own articles from Golf Course News, but recall cutting and pasting the ASGCA chart (before published) right in when preparing it. Its possible that they altered the final version - or that I added my own editorial comments, though, as I really don't recall.  Short version, if anyone questions the 15-30 year spread on greens, then its my bad, for whatever reason, not ASGCA.

Tom D,

Everything can be viewed as self serving. But as you know, it is a small industry and I believe only a truly desparate for business would recommend unecessary changes for his own gain because word does get around soon enough.  I have never been able to convince anyone to spend money they don't have, and I doubt many gca's can either.

As to what's changed, you are correct that increasing maintenance standards have been found to require better infrastructure.  And, if that's the case, then only the top 2% of clubs that are seeking Augusta like maintenance would be worried about rebuilding periodically, and they can afford it.  Again, while others might want to follow, they simply won't unless they have to because of money.

And, nothing in that chart presumes that any club should change "just because"  I presume any club will take advantage of thourough soil tests, etc. that can give them a good idea of how bad their greens mix is.  Lets remember, that many clubs that are 15 years old got built substandard in the first place, so each experience will be different.  If it drains at 1' an hour, its not as likely to survive the next brutal summer.  It may, but it may not.  

so again, its a value judgment in so many cases - and the value is usually made by the club.  In fact, I will bet as many gca consulting jobs have been agreed upon with the gca assuring them that major changes aren't necessary.  When a few years later the greens croak, the gca commiserates "no one could have seen that coming" and then gets the job, rewarded for his patience!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2007, 11:44:48 AM »
What ever became of Widow's Walk as a lab for research? The course must be about 10 years old by now. Has anything been published?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2007, 09:55:21 AM »
Tony,

It may be longer than a decade. We got an update from Mike at an ASGCA meeting a few years ago, but I can't recall what came out of it.  Maybe I slept through that part. ;)



Not to keep the "Life Cycle" battle going unnecessarily, but I was consulting yesterday at a course that had also separately hired an irrigation consultant in 2004 - well before the ASGCA life cycle chart was published.  In his report, he recommended a whole new irrigation system based on the original (circa 1990) system "being near the end of its useful service life."  Three years later, the course has only replaced the control system, because of money.

Three points:

ASGCA only codified what was already common knowledge/conventional wisdome in parts of the industry.

No one is going to spend money they don't have, based on a free one page handout, or a very well paid for consultants report.

When we talk about life cycles, its rarely a "It works or it doesn't" scenario, although it can be.  In this case, the price paid for using the system "beyond its life" is fixing 30 line breaks a year vs. presumably none.  Besides the $1000 per fix, there is the lost opportunity to use that labor elsewhere, image reduction due to brown spots, etc. but the situation is "liveable" and certainly cheaper than the debt proposed on the new $1.6M irrigation system.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kevin Crowe

Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2007, 08:36:56 AM »
I agree with part of what you are sying, If a green is built in a less than desireable location then a SubAir certainly makes sense. And I have never seen a courese that had 18 perfect greens sites. Also, the SubAir technology allows the turf manager to manage air/water ratios in the soil and provide fresh air into the soil profile to get a gas exchange at anytime with no disruption to the surface or to the golfers. Also, It has no impact on how you build a green. All of the SubAir work takes place outside of the greens cavity. SubAir does not impact the construction of the green or the design of the green or the greens complex in any way. In fact, SubAir goes to great legenths to make sure that there is no impact any of these aspects of the golf course.

Paul Carey

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Re: Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2024, 09:30:33 AM »
This was a great discussion of USGA spec greens however it was 17 years ago.  Have the opinions changed over time?  I am involved in a decision for greens rebuild and I am skeptical of the USGA or nothing crowd.  Thanks


By the way the golf course sits on sand.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 09:32:46 AM by Paul Carey »

John Emerson

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Re: Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2024, 01:17:05 PM »
My personal opinion...yes. The best greens that I see that are consistently good and require fewer inputs are the greens that have a "dirty" sand profile. Meaning that there are higher distribution of finer particles and the clay or silt composition is higher than USGA specs. The next frontier is the addition of biochar in the greens profile. There has been some work done recently, and the results are really promising.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Chris Hughes

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2024, 12:29:17 AM »
Kurt..."Down the road at Diamante (Davis Love/ Paul Cowley) I understand they are building push-up greens on the native sand dunes. We are starting a course next door on the same dune, and it is very possible we will do the same thing".
FYI.....we tested the sands and soils all over the site, and they came back just as I expected....recommendation: as long as the existing sand is at least 3' deep, keep it simple stupid....and no drain piping.


Wow, that's cool...
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2024, 02:52:15 AM »
This was a great discussion of USGA spec greens however it was 17 years ago.  Have the opinions changed over time?  I am involved in a decision for greens rebuild and I am skeptical of the USGA or nothing crowd.  Thanks


By the way the golf course sits on sand.


Depends on the depth and profile of the sand but push-up is definitely your first port of call here.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2024, 07:46:27 PM »
Are you considering all greens w a gravel layer and perched water table usga? Or can you change the mix sand/soil/other %s and depths?


Total stations and “scanning” have also changed the game when it comes to building greens in the last few years.


Almost every course I’ve built a “usga” green has been w a different spec to match the conditions and get the ideal results for that particular club/super.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #114 on: April 14, 2024, 10:18:19 AM »
My personal opinion...yes. The best greens that I see that are consistently good and require fewer inputs are the greens that have a "dirty" sand profile. Meaning that there are higher distribution of finer particles and the clay or silt composition is higher than USGA specs. The next frontier is the addition of biochar in the greens profile. There has been some work done recently, and the results are really promising.


I had to check that I didn't post in this back in the day as I would've argued that there is no better solution to a USGA green. I think the biggest issue with them was they generally are not maintained properly so they don't function as they should. The specs are also a one size fits all, which isn't the best either, for example, they do not handle the slow light rains in GB&I like a heavy storm in the US as they never get enough hydraulic head to flush the water though.


As John said over the last number of years we are seeing dirtier mixes and although I was a little apprehensive, I now prefer them much more. I think the USGA specs are a great starting point to build on for the best solution for a particular property.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Stephen Britton

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Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2024, 08:40:02 AM »

We are rebuilding greens this summer in Washington DC.


* 12" cavity no gravel layer
* 4" dainage trunkline down the center back filled with gravel
* 2" laterals on 6' spacing back filled with coarse sand
* 12" cavity filled with 622 greens mix, 60% sand, 20% soil, 20% peat, sand perks around 9"/hr with a Cu of 3.2
* In severe lows a 4" smile drain could be needed


Cutting out the gravel line item saved over $200,000 not to mention the time saved to install.


Kind of a modified, california style, push up green...



Joel:

Most architects and most green chairmen are afraid to build anything other than USGA specification greens, because if it didn't work out they would be crucified for going with less than the industry standard.  I'm sure that goes double for a famous club which is considering taking its course out of play for a significant period to re-do the greens.

I have built about ten courses with native soil greens -- including, by the way, a course on a sand dune within sight of the one you are talking about.  If the native sand perks well enough (close enough to USGA specs) then I don't believe the benefit of a perched water table outweighs the more difficult degree of construction.  But, I'm sure others will cite "consistency" or something as a reason to spend more money.
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2024, 10:44:35 PM »

We are rebuilding greens this summer in Washington DC.


* 12" cavity no gravel layer
* 4" dainage trunkline down the center back filled with gravel
* 2" laterals on 6' spacing back filled with coarse sand
* 12" cavity filled with 622 greens mix, 60% sand, 20% soil, 20% peat, sand perks around 9"/hr with a Cu of 3.2
* In severe lows a 4" smile drain could be needed


Cutting out the gravel line item saved over $200,000 not to mention the time saved to install.


Kind of a modified, california style, push up green...



Joel:

Most architects and most green chairmen are afraid to build anything other than USGA specification greens, because if it didn't work out they would be crucified for going with less than the industry standard.  I'm sure that goes double for a famous club which is considering taking its course out of play for a significant period to re-do the greens.

I have built about ten courses with native soil greens -- including, by the way, a course on a sand dune within sight of the one you are talking about.  If the native sand perks well enough (close enough to USGA specs) then I don't believe the benefit of a perched water table outweighs the more difficult degree of construction.  But, I'm sure others will cite "consistency" or something as a reason to spend more money.
What do mean by 20% soil? What is the make up of silt and clay of that 20%
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Stephen Britton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pros & Cons of rebuilding greens to USGA specs
« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2024, 12:16:19 PM »

We are rebuilding greens this summer in Washington DC.


* 12" cavity no gravel layer
* 4" dainage trunkline down the center back filled with gravel
* 2" laterals on 6' spacing back filled with coarse sand
* 12" cavity filled with 622 greens mix, 60% sand, 20% soil, 20% peat, sand perks around 9"/hr with a Cu of 3.2
* In severe lows a 4" smile drain could be needed


Cutting out the gravel line item saved over $200,000 not to mention the time saved to install.


Kind of a modified, california style, push up green...



Joel:

Most architects and most green chairmen are afraid to build anything other than USGA specification greens, because if it didn't work out they would be crucified for going with less than the industry standard.  I'm sure that goes double for a famous club which is considering taking its course out of play for a significant period to re-do the greens.

I have built about ten courses with native soil greens -- including, by the way, a course on a sand dune within sight of the one you are talking about.  If the native sand perks well enough (close enough to USGA specs) then I don't believe the benefit of a perched water table outweighs the more difficult degree of construction.  But, I'm sure others will cite "consistency" or something as a reason to spend more money.
What do mean by 20% soil? What is the make up of silt and clay of that 20%


No, I mean by weight 20% of actually soil is blended with the sand, including 20% peat.
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...