Prairie Links in Colorado?

[Matt Schulte]

Considering the similarities in topography, soil, and wind between Eastern Colorado and Nebraska, why hasn't anybody built either a links style or prairie links similar in style to Wild Horse on the plains east of Colorado's front range?  

Wild Horse, IMHO, was more the creation of Proctor and Axeland than the result of an unusually great site.  It would seem, that somewhere within an hour of either Denver or Colorado Springs some exposed rolling hills must exist.  Of course, another Sand Hills probably doesn't exist, but there must be a site at least as good as Wild Horse. If the economics work in Gothenburg, NE, they should certainly work within one hour of Denver or Colorado Springs.  

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

I think you are 100% correct.  During the drive on rt 76 (?) out of Denver towards rt80 and Sand Hills and Wild Horse there are miles and miles of dunes that are extremely well suited to golf.  In fact the sites might be much better then the WIld Horse site which you also correctly IMHO pointed out more the creation of Proctor and Axeland than the result of an unusually great site.

Within one hour of the airport (which is on the extreme east side of Denver) there could be several fantastic minimalist, low cost golf courses.

[Scott_Burroughs]

How about this very affordable links-like course in the plains of Colorado's front range?  It HAS been done already!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1020862972

(Go to the second page of the thread to see pics and the name of the course)

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott,

The land that Geoffrey describes is quite a bit different from where Kavanaugh built his fine course on flattish prairie grasses.

We marvelled at it almost the whole 5 hour drive, with mile after mile of rolling dunes, blowout bunkers, and not much else.  You might have to get out a little further than an hour from Denver, but there is superb land for golf out there.  

[Brad Swanson]

In our current record drought, I'm sure anyone that had an inkling about building such a course has had to think twice (or three times) about it.  There has been plenty of discussion about building at least 2 more golf courses out near DIA, but that land isn't quite the topography of Eastern Colorado.  Nonetheless, my home course, Green Valley Ranch GC, is a really good Perry Dye Design that incorporates some of the prarie links look and feel, and is a very affordable course to play.  Its received nothing but rave reviews for such a cheap track, and is in really good shape considering the drought situation.  Interestingly, its been very fun to play because of its hard and fast conditions from tee to green, but the grass is still very good.  Come to think of it, anyone want to join me out there for a round in the near future??

Brad Swanson

[Joel_Stewart]

The key is the community support that Wild Horse had and I'm not sure any town out there can garner that support.  Wild Horse had the local farmers out there grading the land and all told only $1.5 million was spent including the land.
The other thing is the economics.  Wild Horse is only going to do about 17,000 rounds this year and has a good base with people from Gothenburg.  I'm sure there are a few towns between Denver and North Platte but not many that could support a new golf course.  

[GeoffreyC]

Maybe Brad can answer this but I would think that golfers in the Denver metro area would drive 1 1/2 hours to play an authentic links course for <$50 a round.  That's a pretty big base of support.

They're driving that much to play Rustic Canyon in many cases although that's only about 10 miles away in LA  

[Lou Duran]

I was wondering how WH got built for $1.5MM.  What a great way to build a course.  It was obvious when we were there that COMMUNITY at WH is more than another word for a small town.  Where else will the restaurant manager/bartender help two grown men change a tire and offer to have it fixed while we played golf the following day with no expectation or remuneration?

Here in Dallas/Fort Worth, we have several very good courses within a 100 mile radius that are having an extremely hard time making it.  People just don't seem to be willing to drive a long ways on a regular basis, say much more than a half an hour.  I believe that NGF has some data on this, and 45 minutes seems to be near the indifference point.

Also, as it relates to a course like WH, I am not sure how much mass appeal it would have.  At my home club, as long as the grass is lush and the greens receptive, the members are happy.  Let's face it, firm and fast conditions are appreciated by only a small segment of golfers.  Not many folks think that it is neat when you have to be delicate with a 40 yard shot just to keep it on the green.

[THuckaby2]

They're driving that much to play Rustic Canyon in many cases although that's only about 10 miles away in LA  

This distortion of SoCal geography always cracks me up - like when Tommy said he zipped out there in an hour from Orange County.  Never mind the fact that in SoCal 10 miles can take 2 hours, but just what is Rustic Canyon 10 miles from?  The booming metropolises of Simi Valley or Oxnard?

Yes, this is completely tangential the this thread.  Yes, I am a bitter man cuz that great golf course lies down there with the heathens.  Bear with me, folks.  

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Brad S,  I went to Rockiesgolf.com and checked Green Valley Ranch GC out.  Sounds very interesting.  Makes it sound like a natural oasis (not a Shadow Creek) but with great variety.  How links-like are the prairie holes?  Do you like the one hole they talk about with the big twin staggered cottonwoods?  

[Rick Phelps]

I played Green Valley Ranch early this spring and was impressed with its variety.  There are some pretty strong holes that have a decent prairie feel to them that should only get better as the native grasses fill in over time.  There are also a number of holes that take very good advantage of the drainage that runs through the site which supports the mature cottonwoods and wetland plants.  The biggest disappointment was what the Corps of Engineers made the owners do in order to "protect" the wetlands.  There are a couple of instances around greens that were intended to be peninsulas into the wetlands where the Corps required a ditch to be built at the bottom of the slope.  Now, if you miss a green and the ball trickles off the edge of the pad, rather than end up at the bottom of the slope along the edge of a hazard (with at least a decent chance of recovery) the ball settles into this ditch where you basically have no shot.

Fortunately, this only affects two or three holes as I recall.  The rest of the course is fun, somewhat strategic and the greens are great.

As for sandy linksland in northeast Colorado, you guys are right on.  There is a ton of it along either side of I-76 from about Fort Morgan (one hour from DIA) to the Nebraska line.  The problem is, without regard to the current drought, there is very little water available.  I am fairly certain that WH sits over the Ogalalla aquifer where water is very plentiful and not terribly deep underground.  In northeast Colorado, water rights are like gold and even if you have rights, you may have to go very deep with a well in order to get at the water.

[Brad Swanson]

Slag,
   Rick pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to GVR.  The variety of holes is one of its biggest strongpoints.  As far as the hole with the 2 cottonwoods in the middle of the fairway (par 5 #2), I usually have to only deal with the one off the tee because I usually fly over the one near the green the green with my second shot into the green.  I usually reach that one in 2, except from the very tips.  The artificial "ditches" Rick refers to are somewhat strange, but they are very small, and will rarely affect the outcome of a shot headed for the wetlands anyway IMHO, especially if you hit a full shot into them.  Its only a year old, and is one of my favorites in the area, along with Murphy Creek and Riverdale Dunes.  For $25 during the week, you can't beat it, and its very walkable.
   Now, if I could get Rick's dad to do something about the greens at Saddlerock............ .

Brad Swanson

[Brad Swanson]

In addition to the water issues Rick  brought-up, I can't see a course 90 miles or so East of Denver drawing much of the frontrange crowd.  People like Doug Wright and myself would go play, but the average Joe Golfer wouldn't be drawn to go IMHO.  In the metro area we have quite a few good prarie-links type courses that the average golfer would see as very similar compared to something built out on those plains.

Brad Swanson

[Matt Schulte]

Scott Burroughs:

Comparing courses like: Murphy Creek, Buffalo Run, Riverdale Dunes, Heritage at Westmoor, and Green Valley Ranch to Wild Horse is extremely generous to all of those Colorado Courses IMHO.  Every single one of those courses has at least one mis-fit water hole that is completely out of place, not to mention those courses bear only modest resemblence to links golf.

My question is, with the success of courses like Wild Horse and The Gailes at Lakewood Shores, wouldn't the closer proximity to much larger metropolitan areas give a course with a terrific site, such as those available within 90 minutes of Denver, a chance for success?  This would be a far cry from comparing this to the financial challenges faced by, say, The Links of North Dakota.  As stated in earlier posts, the land 90 minutes east of Denver, in the hands of someone like Doak, could yield a masterpiece.  It bosts dramatic rolling hills, with natural sand blow-outs, tall prarie grasses and yucca plants.  Perhaps the masses wouldn't get it, but I am confident the members of this fraternity would flock to it.

Perhaps this is simply the commentary of a Coloradan whose thirst for TRUE links golf goes unquenched!  I see too many developers building redundant heathland courses on sites that MIGHT lend themselves to something TOTALLY UNIQUE to an area already blessed with great public facilities.  

[Jason Hines]

Colorado does have the beautiful terrain for a prairie course, but no Ogallala aquifer.  If you had those types of courses outside of a large city, they would become the spectacle that has become American/Country Club/Big city golf, not the religion it should be.  I have no problems with people making a mint out of golf, country clubs or anything like that, but WH and SH don’t necessarily need the pomp and circumstance.  Another thing about WH, SH and to some extent Bayside, is that they are far away from everything and not just outside the city, that’s what makes them unique.

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   I'm afraid your dreams will likely go unfulfilled.  I think that Wild Horse had a unique set of circumstances and community backing that make it work.  This plus the water issues, plus the abundance of quite a few good (not great) courses with the prarie-links feel near/in the metro area.  I'd love to be proven worng .  Maybe we could discuss this face to face over a round at one of the said above golf courses.

Brad Swanson

[Tom Doak]

Funny you should mention that.  We are doing some planning work on a private course in northeastern Colorado right now ... Jim Urbina might be out there today checking out some of the holes I've sketched in as possibilities.

We haven't signed a contract yet, and the financing is not in place, so I won't say any more for a while.  But it does have a lot of potential.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Bringing this up so I don't have to look for it again in the morning.  (I'm tired and my eyes look like Indiana road maps.)

  Carry on...