Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it true that these courses use green fans to cool their greens during member play.  I'm talking about above ground and not Sub-Air.  Are they portable or permanent?  If they are used at other courses with bent grass greens what temps are they usually turned on?  What is the optimal temerature for growing bent grass and does it make any sense at all to blow air on greens when the temperature is below 80 in the sun during the warmest period of the day.

On a rules note.  If you address your ball and air from a mechanical fan blows the ball into movement is it a penalty?

[noonan]

There some of the air movement fans at one of my local tracks.

They are placed well off the putting surface and should not have an effect on play.

Parts of Muirfield sit low on the property with plenty of mature trees.....I am sure air movement is a problem there.

[wsmorrison]

My old club had a few problem greens (13 and 16) with fans installed nearby.  I hit long and right of the 13th in front of the fan.  Well, I definitely had to take the air blowing out of the fan into account on my recovery shot.  It wasn't enough as the fan blew the ball over the tier as it rolled off the green.  I tried to time it as the fan oscillated back and forth but did a poor job of it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I would like to know what conditions warrant turning the fan on.  I can't see the need when the high temps of the day are below 80 deg in May or late or early in the day.  I find the noise and air from the fans to be such a distraction that a possible management system instead of constant blowing may make more sense.  Does anyone have any proven criteria that include such items as temp and humidity or green surface temp and hours of sun light....anything besides sunlight to sundown.

[john_stiles]

Seem to recall reading somewhere that the temperature of the air envelope, the air above the green, can be reduced by 5 to 10 degrees.

What is the number ( air temp+ humidity) where most would say that many bent strains are stressed ?    Is that 160 ?

How much have new bent strains improved on heat tolerance ?

Have seen many fans in the south on public & private courses.
Can easily imagine that ANGC might have heat & humidity issues at the beginning or end of their season.

[John Kirk]

Both Kinloch and Shoal Creek use those big fans at times.

[David Stamm]

Colonial uses huge fans on a few of their greens. Shady Oaks does as well. If you've ever been to Dallas/Ft Worth during the Summer, you'd know why. I may be wrong, but I think Colonial may have been the first to have fans such as these. They are mounted on poles and sit a couple of feet above the green. Here's a photo. Sorry it doesn't give you the full view, but you can see part of it on the right. Mind you, this was in January.





Scratch that, my settings are screwed up again!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Both Kinloch and Shoal Creek use those big fans at times.

John,

Could you possibly find out for me the criteria that Kinloch uses to turn the fans on.  I was recently blasted by a fan on May 9th at 5 pm when the temp was at most 70 degrees.  I am just trying to find reasons not to run them everyday all day from May to November.

btw...I was great to meet you and battle it out for a few rounds.

[Joe Fairey]

no greenside fans at ANGC...

[John Kavanaugh]

no greenside fans at ANGC...

Thank you...The gentleman who claims there are is down there today getting a tour.  I wonder what he will see or if they bring out the fans during the off season when members are not around.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  Kinloch's Superintendent, Peter Wendt is a member here. Hopefully he will chime in, though I'm sure that he is busy. The fans were on the day I played there, and I could hardly notice, but I know that it's a vital tool to any bentgrass success, especially in the south. Mr. Wendt will have to tell you more, but air movement is one of the MOST IMPORTANT things is surviving the summers with bentgrass.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Adam Clayman]

The original fifth at Pebble Beach had one way behind the green.
This area neither suffered from high temps or bent grass greens, It was simply there to provide much needed air flow.

[James Bennett]

Adam

might the airflow have been needed to reduce the dew on the greens?  Wet greens are more likely to suffer from disease.  Any green surrounded by a natural (or unnatural) amphitheatre through mounds, thick vegetation and the like will have more fusarium type problems than a green that receives natural air-flow.

There can be real micro-climates in spots on a golf course.  I have been to a couple of golf tees surrounded by 3 foot high vegetation.  The difference in temperature at head height is quite different to ankle height - you tend to find this out when you bend down to tee up your ball.  Unfortunately, the grass never finds out about the better temperature at 5 feet high above the turf.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it true that these courses use green fans to cool their greens during member play.  

JakaB,

ANGC is open from October to May.
It's pretty cold from October to March, The Masters is held in April, then the club closes down shortly thereafter.

Who told you that they employ fans to cool the greens during member play ?

There are NO permanent fans on each green.[/color]

I'm talking about above ground and not Sub-Air.  Are they portable or permanent?  

If they are used at other courses with bent grass greens what temps are they usually turned on?  

Metedeconk, Ridgewood and Sherwood have used fans.
It an air circulation issue, mostly where greens are locked in by the terrain or trees.[/color]

What is the optimal temerature for growing bent grass and does it make any sense at all to blow air on greens when the temperature is below 80 in the sun during the warmest period of the day.

I would imagine it would require highly unusual circumstances to employ fans with temps below 80.[/color]

On a rules note.  If you address your ball and air from a mechanical fan blows the ball into movement is it a penalty?

[John Kirk]

I wish had read this thread earlier, as I spent a couple hours with Pete Wendt yesterday.  Maybe I can find out today.

Likewise, JK, as reported in the IM.

[Mike Policano]

Congressional has some fans also. I remember one at the 11th green which looked pretty permanent. The green is set in a wooded corner of the property needs air flow help.

The fans at Ridgewood appear more temporary although they are in the same places every year.

[Ken Moum]

Is it true that these courses use green fans to cool their greens during member play.  I'm talking about above ground and not Sub-Air.  Are they portable or permanent?  If they are used at other courses with bent grass greens what temps are they usually turned on?  What is the optimal temerature for growing bent grass and does it make any sense at all to blow air on greens when the temperature is below 80 in the sun during the warmest period of the day.

These folks have a lot of info. as they are one of the suppliers of such fans.
http://www.subairsystems.com/TB/defaultTurfBreeze.htm

Note that they say they are for alleviation of stagnant air, heavy dew, frost, and surface moisture from rains, so temperature isn't the only factor in their operation.

[John Kirk]

John,

Re:  Kinloch fans

Pete Wendt says they bring out the fans, and pretty much run them all the time between about June 15th and September 15th.  To paraphrase Peter, they run the fans when it's really hot.  The only fan close enough to the green to feel a pretty strong breeze when putting is the par 5 3rd hole.

[mike_beene]

They are a lifesaver when walking the course in August.

[C. Squier]

How do the fans lower the temperature?  Wind makes us feel cooler because it helps sweat evaporate quicker.  If anything, the fans use energy, which turns into heat.  I've always noticed greenside fans where tree canopies overshadow and restrict air movement.  The only argument I can see is that the fans remove humidity, which helps the grass.  

CPS

[John Kavanaugh]

It is May 16th, 61 deg and cloudy and the super is running the fans.  Would someone please justify this for me so I can retain a bit of sanity.

I can hear the birds from inside my office and if I were to choose to go golf in May when it is in the 60's all I would hear is the roar of fans.  It has made the choice to golf a very poor one.

[David Schofield]

Most of the courses mentioned on here are a bit more "prestigious", but during a recent round at Tot Hill Farm (Mike Strantz, Asheboro, NC), I was amazed by the number of fans in use.  I can't recall a single par 3 without fans, and many of the 4's and 5's had them.  The only holes I remember NOT having them were 17 and 18 which are in the middle of an open field.

It did strike me that there's no way that some of the holes would be in playable condition at any time of year without the fans.  Is this an inherent design flaw?  Should air movement be considered alongside strategy, framing and the like?  Or is it OK that it's a secondary consideration for some designers?

Thoughts?  

[Joe Hancock]

David,

Agronomics is a very important factor in design. In your example, however, it is more likely a decision to grow a cool season grass(bentgrass) in a warm season grass(bermudagrass) climate. Sometimes, the issue is just that simple.

Joe

[Tim Copeland]

Recognize these holes??

Even the best go thru tough times....of course it helps to be able to put up tents and cover your bunkers during the hot summer months

[Anthony_Nysse]

Thank you Tim. I have seen similar pics from past interns of several semi truck parked on a fairways loaded down with sod. NO Golf course is perfect year round. They all go through some sort of transition, whether it's from overseeded, after the snow breaks, post aerification, etc....EVERY COURSE

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC