[CHrisB]

Dave S,
One more try. Please read it through before responding to every sentence. It does have a happy ending.

All I'm saying now is that if you take what John Morrisett says as an honest answer, you'll have a hard time convincing the USGA to ban the cheater line (but there may be a way).

John Morrisett says:

It would be unwise for the Rules to attempt to prohibit certain markings on a ball or a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced.

So you say "no, the USGA already does prohibit a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced".

But the only instance you can come up with to argue that the USGA already prohibits "a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced" is the mud-tee example, but in that example, prohibiting the player from teeing it up with the mud is not prohibiting "a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced" because it is not being replaced, it is being moved (elevated above the ground)!

So you then say "what if the ball is on the mud-tee already when it is lifted? Then you would have to put it back on the mud tee, so you have to replace the ball exactly as you found it, and that's prohibiting a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced". Well, you can still rotate the ball in any orientation as long as the mud is on the bottom. If you tried any other orientation, the ball would drop to the ground and be considered moved and not replaced. (I suppose if you could levitate the ball with the mud on the side then the USGA would be OK with that. )

So if I can edit John Morrisett's response, I would say: The USGA doesn't want to prohibit a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced, and they don't want to prohibit a certain orientation of the ball EVER unless it would result in the ball being moved.

Right now, the USGA doesn't have to "prohibit a certain orientation of the ball" unless it results in the ball being moved (the mud-tee example--maybe there are other rare instances), which occurs almost never.

In proposing the ban on the cheater line/trademark used to indicate a line for putting, you're asking the USGA to "prohibit a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced" every time a ball is replaced on the green.

If John Morrisett's answer is honest, and the USGA doesn't want to "prohibit a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced", do you think that the USGA can be convinced to ban using the cheater line/trademark to align the ball if it means that they now have to do something they don't want to do--"prohibit a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced"--every time someone replaces the ball on the putting green?

You have to realize that it doesn't matter if no one ever uses a cheater line ever again--if the rules don't allow it, then the rules are "prohibiting a certain orientation of the ball when it is replaced". And it sounds like the USGA doesn't want to do that without good reason.

The good reason may be what you got into before, that having to use your own judgment to line yourself up is a principle that takes precedent over the right to orient your ball any way you want when you replace it. Just like the restriction against moving your golf ball takes precedent over your right to orient your ball any way you want when you replace it.

That angle combined with a clear "rule of thumb" to determine if a particular mark (line, trademark, dots, shapes, logos, etc.) indicates a line for putting is probably what would be needed to get the rule changed.

The bonus for you would be that they would probably also have to ban other alignment aids like the Betsy King routine and having your caddy or partner help you line up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil McDade,

I think the combination of the cheater line and the need for speed will de-emphasize contour and slope.

[Jim_Kennedy]

All I can say from reading your last few posts is that the game of golf is extremely lucky that you have nothing to do with rules making.

[Michael]

If they restricted a "line" on golf balls wouldn't the golf ball makers just redesign their logos to look like a line?

[John Moore II]

If they restricted a "line" on golf balls wouldn't the golf ball makers just redesign their logos to look like a line?

But then that would violate the rules...or the spirit of the rules, whatever that is

What is/are "The Spirit of the Rules" anyway? Some gentlemans code that says that even though something is legal under the rules you aught not do it becuase it should be illegal?? That makes no sense to me, and frankly, I think its a flawed arguement. I say there is no such thing as "The Spirit of the Rules."

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know how anyone watching Kittlesons "performance" yesterday could have construed that as within the spirit of the rules.

1)  Crouches behind ball, lines up cheater line to show the line to hole.
2)  Gets up stands over ball, checks to see if its lined up from the viewpoint of his stance.
3)   Decides its not good enough, back to step 1.  Repeat as necessary.

On one hole, he did this 4-5 times alternating back and forth between positions.

How in the hell could this possibly be intrepreted as anything else but using the cheater line as alignment for his next shot?  How could this not be a violation of the spirit of the rules?  How is this any different than him putting a towel on the green behind the hole for an aiming point and going back and forth to move it until he finally felt it was correct?

And more importantly, how can the USGA just sit back and let this happen again, and again, and again?

Kalen,

I bet you never thought that we would be in COMPLETE agreement on a subject.

I couldn't agree with you more.

And now, an entire generation of golfers will begin to emulate this practice, especially if he wins the U.S. Amateur.

This is not good for the game.

If the USGA doesn't act on this absurd practice play will head toward 5-6 hours.

Who amongst you would like to play with a golfer who re-aligns his ball 4-5 times on every green on every putt ?

Pat,

This is indeed a very shocking development...its made me very ill, I must go home now!! 

Interesting you ask the question, how would one like to play with a golfer who fiddles like this?  Well I can say, this may just be part of the reason I'm against it.

I used to play golf with a co-worker who was a complete begineer.  First time we go out, he's not only fiddling with the cheater line on the green, but also on the tee as he's teeing it up.  And I kid you not, he takes almost a full minute per shot to do this.  So I ask why he does this, especially in light of him being a beginner, where most of his shots end up being pretty horrible.  And he gives me this response.

"Well the pros do it all the time on TV, and if these guys do it, then as a begineer I should create good habits for myself".

I bit my tongue with a real response and said something like "well you'll never have to worry about being a pro with the kind of shots your hitting"   

We only played  9 holes that day on an executive course, but it took over 2 hours, and there wasn't anyone in front of us.....

[Michael]

I've always loved golf because you and "most times only you" have to enforce the rules on yourself, it agrees with my mind..but...

.. there are enough rules to keep track of with out the spirit of the rules as well..

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know how anyone watching Kittlesons "performance" yesterday could have construed that as within the spirit of the rules.

1)  Crouches behind ball, lines up cheater line to show the line to hole.
2)  Gets up stands over ball, checks to see if its lined up from the viewpoint of his stance.
3)   Decides its not good enough, back to step 1.  Repeat as necessary.

On one hole, he did this 4-5 times alternating back and forth between positions.

How in the hell could this possibly be intrepreted as anything else but using the cheater line as alignment for his next shot?  How could this not be a violation of the spirit of the rules?  How is this any different than him putting a towel on the green behind the hole for an aiming point and going back and forth to move it until he finally felt it was correct?

And more importantly, how can the USGA just sit back and let this happen again, and again, and again?

Kalen-what did you think about my use of the cheater line at TP? If I cared about the putts, I can bet that I backed off at least one putt and realigned it because I didn't think it looked right. Did you think I took too much time? Honestly..

JKM,

Thats the beauty of a just a couple of buddies who are going out for a friendly round....I never even noticed you using it, because you weren't causing any undue delay.  So its not a problem

I understand in weekend, funsy, non-money games, people give themselves mulligans, preferred lies, foot wedges, etc.  I really don't have any problem with this.  But when one is either compelled to play the rules in a formal tournament or is trying to play by the rules in a money game or something, then this is absolutly something that shouldn't happen.

I've played long enough where I can throw out much of the crappola that the pros do on TV.  But for new players coming in, its a monkey see, monkey do kind of thing when taking up the game.  Then throw in the course not being marshalled and its a recipe for 5-6 hour rounds.  If fidgetters like this guy in the U.S. Amateur are shown on national TV for hour after hour doing this kinda crap, its not hard to see where newcomers and players who want to take thier game to next level feel like they need to put in practice what other successful players are doing.

And you know what I can't even say I blame him.  I put all the blame squarely on the USGA for allowing this stuff to happen and not enforcing pace of play rules.

[Michael]

"Pace of play"...that's a whole 'nother issue

[Phil McDade]

If they restricted a "line" on golf balls wouldn't the golf ball makers just redesign their logos to look like a line?

But then that would violate the rules...or the spirit of the rules, whatever that is

What is/are "The Spirit of the Rules" anyway? Some gentlemans code that says that even though something is legal under the rules you aught not do it becuase it should be illegal?? That makes no sense to me, and frankly, I think its a flawed arguement. I say there is no such thing as "The Spirit of the Rules."

So it's OK, when I invite you out to play Lawsonia with me this fall, to cough in your backswing, jingle my ball markers, stand just in your sightline on a tee shot, and move around on the putting green, perhaps swaying back and forth ten feet behind the hole on the line of your putt? That's all OK by you?

Golf is, first and foremost, a game of sportsmanship and good manners, in my view. The rules of golf, both the original Leith rules and those of the Honourable Company, as well as the current-day versions enforced by the USGA and R&A, reflect that tradition. That the oldest recognized golf club in the world goes by the name "Honourable Company" is no accident.

Kittleson's play this weekend, particularly on the greens, was both un-sportsmanslike and in poor manners, both to his playing opponents and those who watch and cherish the game, regardless of whether or not it fit within the confines of current USGA rules or enforcement of them at the US Am. His antics on the green are sympomatic of an unchecked problem -- use of the cheater line -- gone terribly awry.

[John Moore II]

If they restricted a "line" on golf balls wouldn't the golf ball makers just redesign their logos to look like a line?

But then that would violate the rules...or the spirit of the rules, whatever that is

What is/are "The Spirit of the Rules" anyway? Some gentlemans code that says that even though something is legal under the rules you aught not do it becuase it should be illegal?? That makes no sense to me, and frankly, I think its a flawed arguement. I say there is no such thing as "The Spirit of the Rules."

So it's OK, when I invite you out to play Lawsonia with me this fall, to cough in your backswing, jingle my ball markers, stand just in your sightline on a tee shot, and move around on the putting green, perhaps swaying back and forth ten feet behind the hole on the line of your putt? That's all OK by you?

Golf is, first and foremost, a game of sportsmanship and good manners, in my view. The rules of golf, both the original Leith rules and those of the Honourable Company, as well as the current-day versions enforced by the USGA and R&A, reflect that tradition. That the oldest recognized golf club in the world goes by the name "Honourable Company" is no accident.

Kittleson's play this weekend, particularly on the greens, was both un-sportsmanslike and in poor manners, both to his playing opponents and those who watch and cherish the game, regardless of whether or not it fit within the confines of current USGA rules or enforcement of them at the US Am. His antics on the green are sympomatic of an unchecked problem -- use of the cheater line -- gone terribly awry.

Manners and sportsmanship are entirely different than some interpretation of the rules to determine whether or not you can line up putts. And for what its worth, caughing is the only thing that would bother me, and only then if it was a single caugh. I don't mind if people talk during my swing, move around, or anything else really. Enjoying playing as fast as I do, if I backed off a shot everytime someone moved or talked, I would never finish. Simple courtesy is far different than marking golf balls, or using range finders, etc.

-I await my inviation to Lawsonia.

[Mike Benham]

Once again, the Master's Committee is in a position to alter the game of golf.

Whereas years ago, many were clamoring for the Master's Committee to implement a new golf ball, one that had more of the characteristics of the old wound ball, reducing the huge gains in distance and returning the skill of shotmaking to the modern game.

Having watched a few holes of the US Amateur final yesterday, the difference between the lightning play of Danny Lee and cheater line adjuster and re-adjuster and re-adjuster Drew Kittleson, the Master's Committee can take a stand against this fad.    At a minimum, a slow play warning might be in order.

Perhaps in their letter inviting him to their little course next April, they should clarify what they expect  from him ...

[Tom Huckaby]

This assumes that those at the Masters give a crap about this issue.

I am not holding my breath.

And I don't say that to denigrate the management of Augusta National.  I say it because while I gather this Kittleson must have taken it to an extreme that gave shivas and Mucci and others conniption fits, in the scheme of things, those who want to find a way to align their putts and be this slow will always do so, line or no line. 

So I find this to be 40 pages of much ado over nothing... and the fact you guys are castigating the USGA for this to be rather comical - especially when John Morrissett himself has weighed in.

But go ahead, we all do have our white whales, I guess!

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh, Thomas, what are we to do with you?

I know you.  In your heart, you know that artificially aligning yourself for a shot does not fit within the spirit of the game, whether it's with a 2 iron at your feet, sticking a tee in the ground to indicate line, placing a towel at the horizon of a ridge for a blind shot, or -- yes -- even the cheater line. 

They're all erosions of horizontal judgment in the game.   You're supposed to line yourself up without all this crap.  Tom Lehman (who probably hasn't even looked at this thread) just volunteered that part of the reason his favorite course in the US is Shinnecock is that it "tests your ability to set up square to your intended line of play." 

Think about that...

Tests YOUR ability....not your cheater line's ability.

I agree completely.

I also find that there is absolutely no possible way to legislate this away, nor should the USGA or R&A waste their time on doing so.  Those who want to use the ball to align putts will always find a way to do so, no matter what rule re-write you want to suggest.

But keep chasing the white whale... do they call you Ish-ivas-mael?

TH

[Ted Kramer]

In case anyone cares, I'm still 100% in Shivas' corner . . .
100%

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

In case anyone cares, I'm still 100% in Shivas' corner . . .
100%

-Ted

Cool.  We'll call you Ted-mael.

 

[Kalen Braley]

If we're doing %'s, then I'm about 80% there....

I think there are still some interesting counter points....

Huck, call me Kale-mael!! 

[Steve Wilson]

Actually, I think Shivas is cast in the role of Ahab, but I will admit that Ishivasmael sounds cooler than Ashivashab.  On second thought that's an impressive moniker that flows rather nicely off the tongue.

[Michael]

Actually, I think Shivas is cast in the role of Ahab, but I will admit that Ishivasmael sounds cooler than Ashivashab.  On second thought that's an impressive moniker that flows rather nicely off the tongue.

 Probably get him on the "No Fly List" as well....

[Tom Huckaby]

Actually, I think Shivas is cast in the role of Ahab, but I will admit that Ishivasmael sounds cooler than Ashivashab.  On second thought that's an impressive moniker that flows rather nicely off the tongue.

Steve - he and his followers most definitely do fit the Ahab role.  I just couldn't find a decent way to do a play on words using that, so went with Ishmael.  I figured that would be closest enough to drilling in the "irrational chasing of a perceived enemy" approach.

But yes, we should really now have

Muccahab
Ahabshivas
Kalahab
Tedahab

 

[Steve Wilson]

I suddenly had this image of the massive white whale bearing down on a whaler lmanned by the aforementioned crew of Mucciahab, Kalahab, Tedahab, etc.   And as the murderous beasts grows nearer we see the great domed forehead is precisely bisected by a black stripe or in other words a CHEATER LINE.

[Tom Huckaby]

I suddenly had this image of the massive white whale bearing down on a whaler lmanned by the aforementioned crew of Mucciahab, Kalahab, Tedahab, etc.   And as the murderous beasts grows nearer we see the great domed forehead is precisely bisected by a black stripe or in other words a CHEATER LINE.

Absolutely DYING... classic....

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Ok, ok, back on point:

Tom, you agree with me that the cheater line violates the spirit of the game.

What other rules in the Rules of Golf violate the spirit of the game, in your opinion?

Maybe this is the only one?  I don't know and really don't care, as I do believe that those who want to take advantage will always do so, and again, I just plain don't see a way that you could legislate this away.


TH

[Tom Huckaby]

To be honest, I don't have any others in mind. 

That's what makes the cheater line such an outlier.

Maybe the do-over when your ball hits a high-tension wire that Godzilla hasn't already ripped down?   That strikes me as rub of the green; the wire should have been avoided in the first place by the player, just like stupid trees and fixed obstructions that are in the way...

Other than that, I can't think of much...

Fine and dandy - this changes nothing for me - ye are still Ishivasmael Shivasahab.  The amount of energy you have put into this unsolveable "issue"
 is getting rather scary.

But again, whatever turns you on.....

[Steve Wilson]

Shivas,

Truth be told I sympathize with your point of view.

 On aesthetic grounds alone I prefer to see nothing but white when I'm putting.  

I agree with it on the practical grounds that amateur monkeys see professional monkeys taking forever on the greens and so they follow suit. Rounds get longer, I have to wait longer, I lose interest, etc.

I think I understand your reasoning and I see the basis of your objection .  "No line shall be placed"....except for this line.  I guess that would be the philosophical grounds.    

But even though I agree with all this I truly don't know how you go about enforcing it.  People inclined to do this, now that they've been instructed in by watching the pros and top amateurs, will use the logo even if other lines were prohibited.

I guess what I'm saying is you'll a crewman short when the white whale splinters our little boat.

The only option I can come up with a shocking collar that is set to allow the player 30 seconds to putt starting as soon as it is his turn to play.  In addition to speeding up play it would probably attract an entirely new demographic to golf telecasts.

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