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Patrick_Mucci

Shivas's cheater line
« on: May 13, 2007, 09:55:56 PM »
Shivas has mentioned the phrase on a few occassions.

I've never understood why a golfer is prohibited from using an aid to assist him with the line of play, such as laying a club down to help him position his feet and to align his swing, but, if that's so, what is the reasoning for allowing a golfer to use an outside influence, a marker to to circle the ball such that it can be used as an aid to help the golfer position and align himself ?

Do cheater lines thwart the intended challenge of the putting surfaces.

And, if more and more putting surfaces are flattened to accomodate increased speeds, will these markings have even more influence on aligning the golfer ?
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 10:04:56 PM »
I really think it is a pyschological thing anyway.  I don't think it helps a player putt better.  Of course, that is just me from my putting perspective! ::) :-\
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 10:15:13 PM »
If I could only make the putter propel the ball on my intended line...it ain't cheating if it doesn't work...
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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2007, 01:06:43 AM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 13, 2007, 09:55:56 PM

I've never understood why a golfer is prohibited from using an aid to assist him with the line of play, such as laying a club down to help him position his feet and to align his swing, but, if that's so, what is the reasoning for allowing a golfer to use an outside influence, a marker to to circle the ball such that it can be used as an aid to help the golfer position and align himself ?

Do cheater lines thwart the intended challenge of the putting surfaces.


Patrick,

my understanding is that the marking of the ball is for the purpose of identification and so allowed. My experience is that even using such markings to line up 'the ball' doesn't help the player to line up his body. However if it were to be proved that it did (i.e. enough body of evidence) then it may be considered to be not in the spirit of the game.

A final thought on the whole matter is that body alignment does not really matter if the clubface is not correct at impact!
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2007, 01:44:14 AM »
Too bad it doesn't help the player pull the correct club on the 71st hole of the tournament.

The whole aspect that bothers me about the use of cheater lines is the extra time it takes the golfer to accurately figure out where that line is and then place his/her ball there.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 08:01:36 AM »
What does Shivas think of the new Pro V-1s with the "cheater line" already on the ball? I do not know this for fact, but I am sure players from days gone by lined up the ball's logo with their intended line of play so this issue has been around for quite some time.
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Mr Hurricane

Michael Moore

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 08:13:37 AM »
Pat -

The rule says you can't place something to indicate the line. When you place the line on the ball in the comfort of your home, you are not indicating the line.

If you were to write a rule to prohibit whatever you are complaining about, what would the wording be? What would you prohibit?
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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2007, 09:54:09 AM »
I have "The U" marked on the side of my ball and like to read it while I putt. Is that the same as a cheater line?
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Mr Hurricane

Michael Moore

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 09:55:17 AM »
Shivas -

What about players who line up the seam of the ball with the intended line of play? Are they perpetrating some sort of violation?
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 10:18:54 AM »
Shivas,

isn't the reference to mark intended for on the green only? or does it also mean the ball. Off the top of my head I can't say for sure. I agree with you though that it is not in the spirit of the game to try an gain an unfair advantage by tampering with equipment. On the other hand if you can holes putts you can do it with or without such lines and most of us that do it do it out of habit and ritual rather than anything else. For the rest they still keep on missing their quoter of putts.
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Rich Goodale

Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2007, 10:25:27 AM »
Shivas

The horse you are beating is so dead it stopped twitching 2-3 years ago.

Get a life, and a more manly putter.......

Rich
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 10:29:36 AM »
The only thing you can do to prevent this is to go back to the old rule that you do not touch your ball untill it is holed out.  

No marking of the ball when it is on the green unless it is in the way of a fellow competitors ball.

Otherwise there is nothing that can or should prevent a player from orienting the ball any way he/she wishes.

PS- It would be fine with me to go back as it would speed up play (even more then skycaddie  :) )
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 12:26:17 PM »
I don't use any marking on the ball for alignment, I place the ball on the green so that I don't see any writing on the ball, just white baby ...

The final solution is to return to the notion of not touching your golf ball after it is placed on it's tee at the teeing ground until the ball is holed out ... no chance to line it up, speed up play ...
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2007, 12:28:45 PM »
Under the Shiv logic, wouldn't the 2 ball putter be illegal, as well as any putter that has a line on it?

Bottom line for me is there are a lot of bigger problems in golf, this one doesn't hold my interest at all.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2007, 12:29:36 PM »
I like Dr. Childs idea if only to get people who bitch about these things to finally bitch about turning down the irrigation system.

Otherwise Shivas, Rihc is right and so are you.(morally) The horse is dead but it's still not against the rules.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2007, 12:34:50 PM »
"The rule (as are many others) is split in two:  through the green and on the green.  What it says is that when your ball is on the green, "no mark shall be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting".  It doesn't exempt marks that are on the ball."

I did not realize the rules of golf had this statement.

Shiv- I now agree with you and I find it hard to believe that tours allow this to be shown on TV every week.  The LPGA women are particularly bad offenders. They mark and line up every 12 inch tap in.
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Michael Moore

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 12:45:35 PM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 14, 2007, 12:37:01 PM
Why is a putter placed behind the ball?  What is the player's purpose?  To make a stroke.  That is the purpose.  It is not "to indicate a line for putting."

Why is a ball placed on the green? What is the player's purpose? To have something to hit with his stroke. That is the purpose.  It is not "to indicate a line for putting."
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

George Pazin

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 12:51:52 PM »
Can't say that I understand your distinction at all.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2007, 01:06:04 PM »
Shivas -

I thin my approach and put a short, light, straight indentation on my ball. I then use it to line up my putt. Where do I stand?
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Dan Kelly

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2007, 01:09:22 PM »
Sean O'Hair's glacial pace of play yesterday (highlighted by his extremely painstaking adjustment of the Cheater Line on his ball; multiple painstaking adjustments on at least one green) ought to be Argument No. 1 against the Cheater Line.
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2007, 01:29:05 PM »
Agreed, except that someone like O'Hair would likely be just as glacial or worse without a cheater line.

I'm for anything that speeds up the game, generally. I'd guess O'Hair would be even more lost without something to aid in aligning his ball.

It's kind of like the GPS thing. Slow players are slow players, GPS or not, cheater line or not.

How in the world was the last group not put on the clock? NBC reported that they were warned, but not put on the clock.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rich Goodale

Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2007, 01:44:24 PM »
Shivas

Many apologies for using the word "twitching" in my description of your dead horse.  It was inadvertent, even though appropriate.....

Rich
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2007, 02:05:59 PM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 14, 2007, 01:40:36 PM
Quote from: George Pazin on May 14, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
Agreed, except that someone like O'Hair would likely be just as glacial or worse without a cheater line.

I'm for anything that speeds up the game, generally. I'd guess O'Hair would be even more lost without something to aid in aligning his ball.

No he wouldn't!  He would have nothing to fidget with.  He'd put his ball down and then go into his glacial pre-shot routine, true.  But he wouldn't do BOTH!  A man can't align his cheater line AND take 42 practice swings at the same time.  The cheater line adds to his slow play.

It's kind of like the GPS thing. Slow players are slow players, GPS or not, cheater line or not.

True, but not as slow.  I'll bet Sean O'Hair wastes 5 minutes a round on his cheater line, even when he doesn't take 3 minutes on one of them, like he did yesterday.  

How in the world was the last group not put on the clock? NBC reported that they were warned, but not put on the clock.

Because if Mickelson got a penalty for O'Hair's slow play and lost, Oliver Stone would be pitching a conspiracy film to MiraMax over lunch at Spago in about 45 minutes...

I feel quite confident surmising he'd find something else to fiddle with.

As for a Mickelson penalty, it's my understanding of slow play rules that 1) as long as you're hitting your shots in the time required, you are not subject to the penalty (i.e. it would be O'Hair that would be flirting with trouble) and 2) the PGA Tour had modified its slow play policy recently so that individuals can be singled out of pairings, if it's apparent who's causing the slow play. It seemed pretty apparent to me.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2007, 02:13:18 PM »
I smash one out of the rough, onto the green. Upon arriving there, I see that I have given the ball such a nice hit that I can see the groove marks on the grass mark on the ball. I use one of those to line up my putt.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I intentionally hit my drive into the rough so that my ball would have lines on it later on.
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Michael Moore

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Re:Shivas's cheater line
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2007, 02:29:34 PM »
Shivas -

I place my ball such that the logo is perpendicular to the line of the putt and attempt to square my putter blade to that line.
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First
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