O/T (sort of): differences between pros and us

[Jim Nugent]

Lots of good responses.  One other thing pro's have a lot more of is "imagination".  That, plus the skill to pull off the shot.  

One example that really struck me took place in the 1993 or 1994 Tour Championship at Olympic.  Nick Price hit his 3rd at the par-5 17th to the right of the green, down a pretty deep bank.  He had short-sided himself, the green was well above him, and several trees blocked his 4th.  I was standing probably 10 or 15 feet behind him.  No question in my mind what he would do: bump and run.  

That's not what happened.  Seeing a small opening in the trees, Price opened up a wedge, flopped his ball through the branches and stopped his ball on the fringe, short of the hole.  From there he chipped in for his par.  

He had the imagination to see a shot that never would have occurred to me.  He had the skill and ball control to pull it off.  

Isn't TW supposed to be especially gifted in this area?

 

[rjsimper]

You are all wrong.

You overlook the obvious.  

You speak of short game and confidence and some double-secret level of game mangement, and it's all true.  The pros are better at that than the average guy.

But the NUMBER ONE reason they're better than us is the old Chicago Golf slogan: Far & Sure.

They simply hit the ball better than us.  They hit it waaaaay farther than the average decent handicap player and they hit it waaaaaay straighter waaaaay more consistently.

THAT is the #1 difference.  Everything else is vying for #2.  Dems' da facts.

Shiv-
This used to be the case...but I'm not so sure anymore - at least not the farther and straighter bit.  Sure, they hit the ball more consistently solid than any of us do...but that is true of the gap between any level of players, not just us and pros...

But with the advent of "Bomb and Gouge" I really don't think it has much to do with hitting the ball straighter.  Off the tee, they're hitting it more crooked than ever, and I think many of us would agree that a guy hitting the ball 330 in the rough will probably not score as well as the guy hitting it 280 in the fairway (a human distance)...citation: Tiger at Hoylake.

Short game is certainly what separates the top flight pros from the journeymen, but it's also what separates them from us.  I was being a bit overdramatic by saying its wedge trajectory only, but that's the one thing I was most struck by when watching them live.

A great many things I can do with my game can be more/less pro level - I can hit the high booming 300 yard draw on occasion with my driver...I can fade a low 5 iron around a tree...I can work high and low iron shots both ways...but I cannot for the life of me hit a 95 yard sand wedge at the trajectory they do and with the varying levels of control they do.  I can't hit a 60 yard sand wedge that flies in low and goes bounce bounce stick.  

Oh and the above mentioned things about my game? Well, those don't exactly happen regularly - the rule is the mishit and the poorly executed golf shot - but I'm just saying that it's not farther and straighter...but certainly more consistently excellent.  I just think there are enough guys in the world that can hit the ball long and straight (hell, you're one of em) and yes, theres a gap between you and I and even a guy like Mike Weir in that department, but the gap is nowhere near as pronunced as the gap between us and them from 100 yards and in.

Give me 10 balls and the following choices in a beat the pro competition:

1) Driver - ball must end up 290 yards or farther from the tee and in the fairway

2) PW 125 yards - ball must end up inside of 10 feet to a front right pin

3) SW 85 yards - ball must end up inside 5 feet

4) SW 30 yards - ball must end up inside 3 feet

Distance is the obvious thing to point to, but I think that overlooks the fact that a great many of people have the length to compete with the bottom 20 percent of players on the tour by distance, but the bottom 20 percent of players on tour's short game from 100-125 yards in will dance circles around EVERYONE'S short game, bar none, until you get into scratch or better territory.

[Michael]

I have to agree with Ryan,

 Having watched a few pros in person I was pretty much with them as far as distance and placement from the tees to about 100 yard out. Where my game came up way short was the ability to drop a wedge in close.. hole after hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Just an observation but Kalen Braley has to be in the running for the First to a Thousand Posts Award for 2007.

5 months, 1000 posts.  Thats around 8 a day.  Not quite Huckaby-esque, but certainly more than a bit intense.

I can assure everyone, it only shows my complete and all-encompasing enthusiasm for the subject matter.  That being said, there is rarely a day that goes by that I don't check into the so called tree-house even though I'm not sure where that term came from.

I was secretly hoping though that when one hits 4 digits in posts that you win a $25 voucher for Chilis...

[Kalen Braley]

Amen reverend Shivas.  Thats the finest sermon I've heard in quite awhile.

Agree 200% on this one....

[David Ober]

Looking at those stats...for me it might be putting.  At scratch, I don't make 50% of putts from 10-12 feet, nor do I come close to 10% from 25 ft.

Also, driver trajectory.  I hit iron shots just like alot of those players, including lower-trajectory wedges, but I've rarely hit tee balls like they do...the booming, optimized rockets that float almost straight down...

You also probably don't putt on Tour-quality greens week in and week out. They are literally as close to perfect as you can get them without being fake.

I did a little study on my game a while back and kept detailed stats on my round for 1.5 years, which was over 175 rounds. I averaged 30.2 putts per round and 1.82 per GIR in normal rounds, and 28.8 putts per round and 1.78 per GIR in my tournament rounds.

There's one explanation for that: In the tournaments I play, at least half the time the greens are double-cut and then rolled prior to the tournament, which creates a nice, smooth putting surface. Yes, it also speeds up the surface, but the increased "trueness" more than makes up for the added difficult of greens running at 11.5 to 12.5.

[michael j fay]

All aspects:

They hit the ball farther, hence are in a much better position to play their next shot.

They are ridiculously consistent in their fairway wood and iron play, hence they are closer to the hole.

They are remarkable bunker players.

Their worst putters are better than most of the best amateur putters.

Ther mindset is completely different. They KNOW they can hit every shot, we think we can. They expect positive results, we are clueless.

When they hit a bad shot they calmly approach the next with the certainty that they can recover, we fear the worst.

In essence they play a different game. They control, we pretend.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I'm also with Shivas on this one. Go to any pro tournament and watch the pros warm up on the range -- then compare the succession of all but perfect shots to our own range sessions. I'm a decent near-scratch player and I am nowhere near the consistency and effortless power of a pro's ballstriking. When a pro hits 10 five irons on the range, he hits 8 or 9 majestically and 1 or 2 a little hooky, a little fat or thin. My average 10 five irons probably has a couple of great(pro quality or almost pro quality) strikes, 1 or 2 very solid strikes, 4 or 5 servicable hits (up around the green (or surrounding hazards!) albeit thin, fat or wayward), and 1 or 2 very skanky blows.

Sure they chip and putt better than us -- much, much better -- but it's the ballstriking that gets them out there playing for money; the short game and mental game decides how much they win

I once read something by Mike Clayton (in an article or maybe in his book) where he said something to the effect that it was physical ball striking skills that separated low cappers from pros. Maybe Mike could chip in with his thoughts?

[Phil Benedict]

Huck,

Since this thread started with your observation on how well the pros dealt with adversity on the 17th, did it make you feel any less inadequate when poor Sean O'Hair made 7 there today?

[JR Potts]

I have had the opportunity to play with some of the world's best players.  I'm telling you, they don't hit it a whole lot better...but jesus, they get it up and down from EVERYWHERE!  And not just get it up and down by making putts, they hit their wedges, chips, pitches and bunker shots within inches....several times each round.

It's a whole lot earier on one's psychie when you get it up and down religiously.  It makes teeing off on the next hole a whole lot more enjoyable.  

[Glenn Spencer]

I agree Ryan. He is not world class or anything yet, but I played a qualifier with Lee Williamson one time. He did hole a 6-iron on a converted par 5 for an eagle, but his short game and putting was just the most amazing thing that I have ever seen. Never seen a ball roll SO true. Bunker shots to 4 inches and chips to 8 inches behind the hole or in. I would have shot 80 off his tee to green and he would have shot 65 off mine. Instead he shot 68 and I shot 75. He lost in the finals of the Publinx to Ryan Moore and played on our Palmer Cup team. He may play the tour some day or he may not, but I tell you honestly, give some scratch golfers his short game and their lives would get a lot better. I can think of about ten guys that I would love to see play with a short game like that. In all honesty, his long game didn't stick out in ANY way. Not at all. I guess he could have been having one of those days, but it sure didn't seem like it.

[Tom Birkert]

Interesting discussion. I play regularly with good quality amateurs (handicaps anywhere from scratch to +3) and also with pros (mini tour level in Europe). For ball striking I don't really see that much difference between the two groups. Both hit it long, both can hit pretty much any shot they want, and they are a joy to watch.

However, I think there are two main differentiating factors. The short game and the brain game. A friend of mine has all the talent in the world, but doesn't have the right mind to turn pro. He is not able to compartmentalise the emotions, pressure etc that come with top level golf. He played junior golf with a number of players who are now on tour and have played in the Ryder Cup. He had the ability, but lacked the mental fortitude and strength of belief in his own talent.

Secondly, the short game. We host International Final Qualifying for The Open, and I was playing last year the weekend before it was to take place, and there were pros everywhere walking the course, getting yardages, hitting some practice shots on course etc. One pro asked if he could join us for the last couple of holes, and I was actually unimpressed with the sound of his ballstriking. He didn't hit it nearly as far as my playing partner (2 handicap with the long game of a pro and the short game of me!), nor was the contact as sweet. He hit 7 iron in to the 15th (and pulled it into the bunker), my mate hit 9 iron to 2 feet from the same spot. The pro hit the bunker shot to 6 inches.

On the next hole the pro again missed the green, and again hit his chip stone dead.

They make pars from positions a mid single-figure handicap golfer would be pretty much certain to take a bogey.

They have an absolute belief in their ability to get up and down.

Pros are not afraid to go low either. How many times do you find yourself thinking "I've got a good round going here, don't mess it up!", which is usually followed by the wheels falling off? Pros love getting a good round going as they are not worried about messing up, but instead revel in taking advantage.

The only pro whose ball striking has stood out to me as being really special was Sergio Garcia. The sound of his strike was discernably better than anyone else who was playing in the event (this was the Seve Trophy a few years ago). I imagine it's magnified with Tiger.

[Michael]

I have to agree with Ryan,

 Having watched a few pros in person I was pretty much with them as far as distance and placement from the tees to about 100 yard out. Where my game came up way short was the ability to drop a wedge in close.. hole after hole.

Michael, no offense, but I don't buy it for a second.  You may think this to be the case or have convinced yourself of this, but I'll bet you $1000 sight unseen that if Simon Cowell knew anything about golf and he judged you after a few rounds, he'd tell you "your ballstriking accuracy makes Seve look like Fred Funk.

Oh, no offense take...I'm sure I have deluded myself on many points..But still I found the widest gap (in talent) was in the short game, 9 irons and in. And I'm sure Cowell would find " no swing in my flaw'

[Bruce Katona]

Please remember something, professional means that is what these fellows do for a living....they practice constantly, play and work on the menatl side of the game (who among us rank amateurs works on their mental game - I'm happy to get 1 hour a week to practice).....I asked one of our guys (who was on the Sunshine Tour ) what it would take for him to get back to his A game....he said 3-4 months of practice and playing....he ever plays now and is either 1 over or 1 under on the one round per month he does play....... I occasionally play with a friend of mine who is a professional (Q School several times)...75 is a poor day for him.....the difference in our games....short game and mental game....he plays point to point golf and never beats himself.

[Jerry Kluger]

The short game certainly has to be a factor as Phil won the Players when he tied for 65th in driving accuracy out of the 79 players who made the cut.

[Andy Doyle]

...  Seeing a small opening in the trees, Price opened up a wedge, flopped his ball through the branches and stopped his ball on the fringe, short of the hole.  From there he chipped in for his par.

That's what I was thinking - knowledge of their own ball flight/trajectory, with any club.

It's one thing to be creative and see opportunities to hit recovery shots (e.g. see that small opening in the trees), but it's another to actually be able to hit that opening.  So many times I see these guys in places that look impossible, yet they are able to hit the recovery shots that save them strokes.

I can see the shots, but I'm usually ricocheting the ball off a couple of trees into an even worse spot.

The first time I really saw this up close was watching Fred Couples at the Tour Championship at East Lake.  He pulled his drive left behind a big tree.  He couldn't go under because of a downhill slope and a bunker in the way.  He stood there looking at the tree for a while & then smoked a 6 iron through an opening in the branches we didn't even notice - and we were standing abut 10 feet directly behind him.  He got his shot up around the green & made the up and down for par.  I was incredulous he knew and had enough confidence in his ball flight to hit that shot.

Andy

[Matt_Sullivan]

Good point Andy. And I believe this comes back to the quality of their ball striking. Confidence in control of trajectory comes from the ability to hit it perfectly solid almost all the time. That's where they are better than most low handicappers. The scratch player who hits it like a pro but can't chip and putt is mostly an internet myth. Very few pros are pros because they hit it like a four handicapper and chip and putt sublimely. The worst ballstriker on the PGA Tour is a far better ballstriker than 99% of non nationally ranked low cappers

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Since this thread started with your observation on how well the pros dealt with adversity on the 17th, did it make you feel any less inadequate when poor Sean O'Hair made 7 there today?

Yes.  Although I did surely feel bad for O'Hair, well... he can afford the financial loss.  This did show me that these guys are human in any case.  And I do feel less inadequate.