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Patrick_Mucci

The devolution of a golf course
« on: May 12, 2007, 10:39:21 AM »
Playing Sleepy Hollow and watching the work in progress as well as observing completed work and being informed on the work to be done was enlightening in several ways..

First, I was struck by the following.

How did a golf course with such a regal pedigree, architecturally and historically, allow the golf course to be disfigured ?

Isn't that THE critical question ?

While TEPaul is of the school of not pointing fingers, if no one is held accountable how can you prevent the future disfiguration of golf courses ?

One of the first things I noticed as I played the first hole was that a berm, which ran most of the length of the hole, along the right side, adjacent to the 18th hole, had been planted with trees.

Years ago an architect told me that trees should NEVER be planted on a berm or mound, for a variety of reasons, most of which escape me at the moment.

I suspect that some Green Chairman, committee or President decided that seperating the holes was desirable for aesthetic or safety reasons, and not for functional reasons.

The second thing I noticed was mounding near the green.
Many of the mounds had bunkers cut into them.
The putting surface was marvelous, and totally out of context with the mounds.

How could the members take a CBM and AWT golf course and eradicate their work ?  What would drive them to dismiss two architectural geniuses in favor of the fad of the decade ?

As I played the golf course I could see invasive trees, ornamental trees, stupid trees, backround trees, colorful trees, etc, etc.. All planted in the last 50 or so years, some quite recently.

It was only in the late 60's and early 70's that tree planting took off.  In the Metro NY area, "landscape architecture" landed on golf courses with a vengeance.  And once one club found out that another had planted all of these trees .......
Monkey see, monkey do.

But, here was a club with many holes cut through the woods.
A club with a beautiful balance of open and enclosed holes.
Why the need to enclose everything ?

On some holes I observed paved cart paths immediately adjacent to greens or areas of play.

In some areas fairways had been shifted, greens allowed to shrink, effectively moving them, bunkers lost, etc., etc..

So, how did all of these things happen ?

How did one mistake beget others ?

How did good golf holes begin their downward spiral into mediocrity ?

Club politics certainly play a huge hand and exert undue influence.   All too often, unqualified and/or uneducated individuals are granted "Green Chairmanship".  That may be the one fatal mistake common to most clubs.

I think one of the areas where holes devolve substantially is the method by which the flow of cart traffic is determined.

All too often, cart paths have been introduced on a hole by hole, location by location, RANDOM basis.

On early golf courses, carts were never a design consideration.  Thus, with their introduction and popularity, clubs were left to deal with the flow on their own, and usually on a random, as the need arose, basis, without any master plan or deep thought.  And, unfortunately, most used the shortest distance between point A and point B as THE route of convenience.

So, a cart path is created near an area of play, let's use a fairway on a par 5 as an example.  After a year or two, the members complain that drives are hitting the cart path and careening into another fairway.  The clubs solution:
1  Move the fairway away from the cart path
2  Plant trees to prevent balls from hitting the path and going
    into the adjacent fairway.

But, this creates an awkward angle of attack on the second shot.  So, bunkers are shifted, fairways moved and an S shaped par 5 begins to devolve.  Next a cart path is placed close to the green.  More complaints, so the green is allowed to shrink to get it away from the cart path.

Next, those in love with the beautification of the golf course decide that "color" should be added.  So, dogwoods and azaleas are planted directly behind the green.   The green sits elevated at the rear above the surrounding terrain, presenting a dicey approach, one meant for only the brave of heart, so the area behind the green, once meant to penalize the unsuspecting, bold or errant is now a flower, shrub and tree bed.  Over time, due to the problems with balls hit into that area, the green is "pulled back" from its orignal position and extended more in the front, thus altering the putting surface and strategic intent on the hole.

What was once a good hole has become a quilt like hole, absent continuity in design and mediocre at best.

Those changes have set a precedent.
They've signaled that the golf course is fair game to alterations, irrespective of their merit or origin.
Suceeding Green Chairman and committees now have carte blanche when it comes to the golf course, so member complaints become forced onto the golf course, but, with the altering of one problem, another arises, and so, that must be fixed, but, that causes yet another problem which must be fixed, and so, the downward spiral continues.

WHY ?

Primarily because each Chairman has viewed every perceived problem brought to his attention, solely in a micro context, rarely, examining the perceived problem in a macro context.

In many cases, the Chairman didn't have the ability to examine the problem in a macro context, and, rather than consult with an architect, since the problem seemed rather insignificant, action was taken, action that would lead to a domino like effect on the golf course, resulting in the eventual disfiguration of feature after feature, hole after hole, until the entire golf course was a shadow of its former self and void of the original flavor, the design intent and integrity.

What can be done to prevent this all too familiar process ?

I think Tom MacWood had the right idea.
A club should thoroughly research its architectural history before making any changes.  Once a change is made, it's difficult to reverse, irrespective of how bad the change is.
In terms of a time frame to correct the error, a decade or two or more isn't out of the ordinary.

A club should interview a number of architects and PAY for their Master Plans.  This may be expensive, but, in the long run, it's the path of the lowest cost.

The club should then hire A consulting architect and a Master Plan should be established.

While there's no guarantee that future changes will be beneficial, the process is far superior to the random, whimsical methodology that's been employed in the past, a methodology that in most cases resulted in the disfiguration of the golf course.

Have you observed changes that have had a negative impact on the architecture and play of the golf course ?

If so, how did those changes get implemented ?

What was their genesis ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 10:56:59 AM »
Patrick:

I don't know the details nor the individuals involved in the evolution of Sleepy Hollow over time.  But, if you were alive in the 1920's, would you have been in favor of allowing A.W. Tillinghast to "disfigure" the work of C.B. Macdonald to begin with?  I'm sure the club were convinced they were doing the same thing a few years ago by bringing another architect in to update the course (again).

As to your questions on cart paths, most clubs simply put them in back in the 60's and 70's where traffic had worn out obvious routes ... right next to the greens and tees.  It wasn't until maybe 1985 that anybody thought about trying to hide them from view, and a lot of clubs have been slow to get around to fixing past mistakes.  I just HATE to deal with cart paths on any level but some of the great old clubs we consult for have some of the worst cart paths you can imagine, because they were put in for functional (wear) issues with no thought to aesthetics.

Also, I don't know who told you that trees should NEVER be planted on a man-made berm, but I've done it several times.  You just have to be careful how it's done to make it look natural.

TEPaul

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2007, 01:22:26 PM »
Unbelievable!

About once a month on here Patrick Mucci posts another thread just lambasting another whole membership and demanding they all be held accountable for disfiguring their course.

I mean, look, apparently doing good master plans and restoration plans and getting them through the membership must be too easy. So why not just spice things up a bit and start out by completely lambasting your membership and totally pissing them off?

Then ask for their money to fix the things that you've lambasted them for screwing up. Maybe they're more likely to give you the money and approval to you that way.

Good thinking there, Patrick. I can't imagine why any club wouldn't want to lambaste their membership and hold them accountable before launching into a master plan or restoration plan.

TEPaul

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2007, 01:44:39 PM »
"I think Tom MacWood had the right idea."

Oh come on, Patrick, give us all a break!

I can't really think of a single restoration plan or project to date that he ever approved of. Can you?

His philosophy was that very few courses were good enough to restore anyway and those that were shouldn't be touched for fear of making another mistake. Snce I don't think there was a restoration project he was ever involved in personally and actively from start to finish that philosophy is obviously the same one he applied to himself. And for what? Seems to me only to continue to try to pass himself off as a total preservationist. Effectively, he was one of the biggest opponents of restoration I've ever seen. He didn't even seem to care if entire memberships seemed genuinely pleased with their restoration projects.

Nobody wins anything unless they actually get in the ring and risk the possibility of of not remaining blameless from somebody somewhere.



Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2007, 03:32:42 PM »
I admit that I am still pretty new here and have been critical at times myself but the above comments reminded me of some great quotes from our 26th President.  I am NOT accusing anyone of anything, just thought these quotes could be interesting to all of us on this site at times:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

    Below are additional quotations related to the more famous and later quote. These quotes taken from a cdrom - The Works of Theodore Roosevelt - National Edition, A PRODUCT OF H-BAR ENTERPRISES COPYRIGHT 1997

"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." (1891)

"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." (1894)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 09:05:03 PM »

About once a month on here Patrick Mucci posts another thread just lambasting another whole membership and demanding they all be held accountable for disfiguring their course.

I  never demanded anything.

If those responsible for disfiguring a golf course AREN'T held accountable how would that prevent future disfigurations ?

You're eager to dismiss the disfiguration of golf courses without examining how it happened.

Those that don't learn by studying history are condemned to relive it.
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I mean, look, apparently doing good master plans and restoration plans and getting them through the membership must be too easy. So why not just spice things up a bit and start out by completely lambasting your membership and totally pissing them off ?

Is that what happened at your club ?
Is that why the membership rejected your project ?

Noone, other than you, has intertwined the lambasting of a membership with the proposal of a Master Plan.

Evidently the members of Sleepy Hollow agree with me.
They agree that the golf course has been disfigured and now rectifying the problems. That's why they voted to appropriate the funds to undue the previous errors.

That you choose to hide your head in the sand, forgiving all prior architectural transgressions, without examing how they came into being and how one error compounded and spawned additional errors is a form of denial.

One would think that I struck a nerve, a very sensitive nerve.
[/color]

Then ask for their money to fix the things that you've lambasted them for screwing up.

I'm amazed at your inability to context the issue.

The membership responsible for the disfigurations is not the same membership that's currently undoing them..

Most are long gone, now residing in that wide or disfigured fairway in the sky.
[/color]

Maybe they're more likely to give you the money and approval to you that way.

I've been involved in more than a few architectural projects where the membership had to vote on the issue and the funds, and in each and every one, the membership approved the project as it was presented.
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Good thinking there, Patrick. I can't imagine why any club wouldn't want to lambaste their membership and hold them accountable before launching into a master plan or restoration plan.

You're confused.     Again.

The Master Plan has already been approved and is well into the implementation phase.

The issue of devolution arose during a discussion with the member.

I'll provide you the short version and I'll try not to use compound words.

The member explained what was being corrected.
We then discussed how the feature or item being corrected came into existance.
We then discussed the domino theory and the compounding error theory as it related to each item.

The more we spoke the more we recognized a pattern and a situation not disimilar to the phrase, "as night musts follow day"

With SO MANY restorations being undertaken, it peaked our curiosity as to why so many golf courses altered or disfigured their golf course in the first place, especially, golf courses associated with highly regarded architects.

If YOU don't study and understand how features, holes, routings and golf courses are disfigured, you'll never be in a position to prevent that occurance.

It's an educational exercise and had nothing to do with how Gulph Mills altered their golf course and then failed at the first bite of the apple with your membership.
[/color]


Patrick_Mucci

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 09:11:26 PM »
"I think Tom MacWood had the right idea."

Oh come on, Patrick, give us all a break!

I can't really think of a single restoration plan or project to date that he ever approved of. Can you?

His philosophy was that very few courses were good enough to restore anyway and those that were shouldn't be touched for fear of making another mistake. Snce I don't think there was a restoration project he was ever involved in personally and actively from start to finish that philosophy is obviously the same one he applied to himself. And for what? Seems to me only to continue to try to pass himself off as a total preservationist. Effectively, he was one of the biggest opponents of restoration I've ever seen. He didn't even seem to care if entire memberships seemed genuinely pleased with their restoration projects.

Nobody wins anything unless they actually get in the ring and risk the possibility of of not remaining blameless from somebody somewhere.


TEPaul,

While Tom MacWood had limited experience with restoration projects, he made a valid point that shouldn't be overlooked.

He maintained that a club, especially one about to embark on a project that would alter the architecture, had an obligation to do as much research as was practical in an attempt to uncover the architectural history of their golf course.

I can't think of one valid reason why that isn't a very good suggestion/concept.

What harm is done by undertaking his suggestion ?

Then, weigh that against what harm is done when NO research is undertaken.

While I disagreed with Tom on a variety of issues, I think he was 100 % correct on this one.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2007, 09:36:34 PM »
Chris Cupit,

"Without criticism, progress is impossible."
Philip Wylie

"Without criticism and reliable and intelligent reporting, the government cannot govern."
Walter Lippmann

"The practice of "REVIEWING" .... in general has nothing in common with criticism."
Henry James

"Criticism is properly the rod of divination:
a hazel switch for the discovery of buried treasure, not a birch twig for the castigation of offenders."
Arthur Symons

"The effect, if not the prime office, of criticism is to make our absorbtion and our enjoyment of the things that feed the mind as aware of itself as possible, since that awareness quickens the mental demand, which thus in turn wanders further and further for pasture.  This action on the part of the mind practically amounts to the reaching out for the reasons of its interest, as only by its ascertaining them can the interest grow more various.  This is the very education of our imaginative life."
Henry James.

As to being a doer, I'm not one known to sit on the sidelines.

TEPaul

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 07:39:27 AM »


”If those responsible for disfiguring a golf course AREN'T held accountable how would that prevent future disfigurations ?
You're eager to dismiss the disfiguration of golf courses without examining how it happened.
Those that don't learn by studying history are condemned to relive it.”

Patrick:

How wrong can you be really?

Can’t you understand one (or a golf club) can do excellent and hugely helpful research on the architectural history and evolution of a golf course and use it productively with a membership without needing to criticize others and hold them responsible for disfiguring the course in the past?

Have you already forgotten that wonderful story about the 94 year old man on our master plan committee who admitted that he was the one who planted all the trees on the course not understanding what would eventually be wrought by them? Did we hold him accountable? No, we did not. He held himself accountable, explaining to us he did not know back then the things he’d learned being on the master plan committee. We didn’t even know he was the one who did it. He even offered to go in front of the entire membership and explain to them he did not know the things back then he’d just learned by being on the master plan committee. He did not have to go in front of them. His realization was proof the battle was already have won.

Can you really tell me I’m eager to dismiss the disfiguration of golf courses without first examining what or how it happened?

Have you already forgotten I’m probably the first one who ever wrote an architectural design evolution report of a golf course? Remember, I gave you a few copies?

We aren’t going to be condemned to relive the history of disfiguring our golf course because we understand that history now and we did not need to lambaste anyone or hold them accountable in the process.

As for Tom MacWood---I wrote that design evolution report before I ever heard of Tom MacWood or before GOLFCLUBATLAS.com even existed.

Tom MacWood somehow seems to have a copy of my design evolution report or has seen it. Do you know what he said about GMGC? He merely said it was a course that apparently had more architects come through it and mess it up than most any other course and that he wasn’t even sure the course was worthy of a restoration. And this from a man who in a number of other instances such as Aronimink was highly critical of a restoration project that he’d never laid eyes on. He’s never seen Aronimink or GMGC. I doubt he’s even been to Philadelphia.

Do you know what my one word description of that kind of thing is---that kind of modus operandi and restoration philosophy? It’s---BULLSHIT!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 07:47:55 AM »
Chris Cupit,


As to being a doer, I'm not one known to sit on the sidelines.

I'm certain of that ;D

Again, the quotes were as much a friendly reminder to myself as they were to anyone else.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 08:11:37 AM »
Pat,

it's more important to be effective than to be right.

The way to proceed on restoration is do thorough research but to present it in such a way as to be able to move on rather than recounting and assigning blame. Most of the people who did the work are probably either dead or know today they had no idea what they were doing. If they are still around in the club you need their support rather than their resistance. If they are still active in the industry (!) you just make sure the club doesn't hire them.

I always pass such mistakes off as "everyone was doing it then and it happened here, too," and there's no reason to designate or recount every mistake more than that. You need to find ways to allay people's anxieties and just be able to plow ahead with doing what you think is right. But if your aim is to change people's thinking about what they did then, or have them fess up, forget it. Your best bet is to let the new work speak for itself rather than to harange them.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 08:12:56 AM by Brad Klein »

TEPaul

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 08:21:16 AM »
"You need to find ways to allay people's anxieties and just be able to plow ahead with doing what you think is right. But if your aim is to change people's thinking about what they did then, or have them fess up, forget it. Your best bet is to let the new work speak for itself rather than to harange them."

Brad:

I sense that Patrick knows that but do you really expect him to admit it on here? I say, no way!  ;)

Just watch his response--he'll probably just change the subject or avoid it.

Furthermore, the realities of these kinds of histories and evolutions is that those people back then thought they were doing the right thing. The reality is that if you and me and Patrick lived back then we would all probably be doing the very same things our forefathers did to those golf courses. It was just the thing to do back then. Certainly they were doing what everyone else was. Now times have changed very dramatically. If our forefathers happened to live in our time they would all probably be doing what we are with these courses.

In his attempt to always assign blame and hold people accountable Patrick obviously is not fully appreciating this fact and reality---this history and evolution.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 08:26:09 AM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 08:58:48 AM »
TEP,

we agree in basic approach but perhaps not in one respect. Just as I don't care to beat up old, dead and/or mistaken members and show them up for fools, nor do I want to do the same to Pat Mucci. In both cases, the effort is futile. I'd rather take the scholarly high road.

TEPaul

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 09:14:09 AM »
Good point Brad. It is futile to beat up on or discuss this with Pat, and it is better to take the scholarly high road---a road one is not likely to find Pat on anyway.  ;)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 09:45:38 AM »
East Coasters. Gee.

If we planted mesquite or other desert-thriving trees in swales — LOWER AREAS —  they would die because they receive TOO MUCH water.

You see, there truly are no rules for all of golf or golf courses.

Tom D. hits the right note: However you plant trees on higher points, it needs to be done so it looks right, whether that be natural or just pleasing.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 09:52:11 AM »
Remember Brad K is the political sceintist!.  Of more interest is the history, forensics, of the change.  

The trees on the berm were placed there for reasons beyond architecture.  I have seen courses where trees were placed for reasons of personal interest which make no sense under the spotlight of GCA.  

On the 5th hole of my home course 50 yards short of the green is one tree planted without reason to the left of the poorly designed cart path.  (The cart paths were designed by a member using crayons, now that is a fascinating artifact)  While the tree makes no sense today, the dogleg left was nearly driveable before the firs added to the inside of the dogleg grew to 50'.  So why is the tree there?  Because the green chairman played with a fellow who nearly drove the green every week and left the ball on the right side 50 yards short of the green.  

"Now I'll show that SOB!"  

How do you cut it down now that its grown up?  

Of interest the 329 yard hole was the most difficult in the 2001 Washington Open.  

It is all about the perspective and the history.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 09:52:55 AM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The devolution of a golf course
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2007, 11:52:41 AM »
Brad Klein,

I can understand TEPaul not understanding the context of the exercise, but you ?

The facts are: the restoration has been approved and implemented.

This isn't part of a presentation, it's an examination of the cummulative "as built"

You and TE seem to view the situation as if you're simultaneously presenting a restoration plan while at the same time being critical of the previoius alterations, and, nothing could be further from the truth.

During the play of a golf course the individual component pieces that were forced upon the golf course were identified by the member and discussions on the topic ensued.

I attempted to extend that process to this site.
It has nothing to do with confronting the or any membership.

This issue isn't isolated to any one club, it's a universal issue.

You've allowed the irrational thinking of someone who's overly sensitive to this issue to influence you.

The purpose of the thread was to examine how the architecture was altered over time, by analyzing each of the component pieces and how one change created others, the interrelationship of changes on a golf course.

Tom Doak's response with respect to cart paths provides some insight.

He indicated that many clubs merely pave the areas worn away by carts.  Since cart riders tend to take the route of convenience, the shortest route between Point A and Point B, is the area that gets worn out, but, that may not be the optimum location for a cart path servicing that area.

It shows that clubs have little understanding with respect to how cart traffic adversely impacts play, since they place paths next to areas of heavy play, rather than looking for ways to route the carts in areas removed from play prior to, and not after an area has become worn, and thus embeded in the golfing culture.  The key is to examine the cart traffic issue with a global perspective and not an isoloted perspective and to create preferable routes before bad traffic patterns are established.

TEPaul, who doesn't understand the issue, the context of the issue and the time frame of the issue, has derailed or hijacked a potentially good thread.

I would have thought that someone who is a highly recognized and respected golf and architecture CRITIC, would understand that.

TEPaul,

As for Tom MacWood, as I said, I don't agree with him on a variety of topics, but, he was factually correct when he said that GMCC had been altered by a good number of architects.

In reviewing the number of architects who altered your course, I can see why you're so sensitive to this issue.

Ross
Toomey
Maxwell
Stiles
McGovern
Gordon
RT Jones
Fazio
Hanse.

I admire your rising to the defense of generations of Paul's and Drexel's   ;D  Your ancestors would be proud of you. ;D

Shivas,

If that was the case, why have trees planted on mounds and berms survived for 40 - 50 years ?

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