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Patrick_Mucci

A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« on: May 11, 2007, 11:37:40 PM »
One of the neat things about golf is the variety of the playing fields and facilities.

Recently, I was driving along Rt 9, taking in historcal, if not fabled surroundings.

Elegant fieldstone churches, beautifully decorated graveyards, magnificent stone walls and the like, when suddenly, I came across a magnificent stone and iron gate.

It was open, so, I turned into the gates, and as soon as I did, before me there appeared, fields, landscaping, greens, bunkers and a majestic clubhouse high up on a hill.  There were tennis courts, a pool, stables, skeet ranges and ..... a golf course.

When I parked my car and walked to the clubhouse there was a panoramic view of the facilities, the golf course and the Palisades.

I had to tour this elegant setting, these fabulous buildings and, I had to play this golf course

In the locker room there was a schematic of the golf course dated in 1931.  The schematic had been prepared by an architectural firm located in Fair Lawn, New Jersey.
The architects name escapes me, but, his initials were CSW.

I managed to become paired with a member and two of his guests.

When I mentioned that I had never heard of the architect whose schematic was hanging in the clubhouse, the member indicated that he never heard of him either.  But, I was told that some very famous architects, living and dead, had been involved with the design and redesign and modification of the golf course over many years.

The golf course sits on unique terrain.

The golf course starts off and finishes with fairly wide fairways.  In the mid section of the golf course, those fairways narrow.  The golf course is both open and cut through the woods.

I marveled at the diversity in the design.
No two holes were alike, even though three holes on the back nine had some similarities, the uniqueness of the greens, fairways, elevation changes, etc, etc., made them different.

There was a punchbowl green, not unlike the 1st on the 4th nine at Montclair.  There was a short, with an intimidating, almost skyline look.  Unfortunately, a horseshoe mound had been removed from the putting surface.  There was a reverse Redan, probably better than # 11 at LACC North or The Creek.
There was a double fairway.  There were uphill holes, downhill holes, short holes, long holes, dogleg holes.  There was even a new green being constructed that was very unique looking, and, it was a plateau green with a raised rear tier.

The par 3's were great.  All quite unique.
There were only two par 5's, but, they too were unique.
The par 4's had terrific diversity, inclusive of very different putting surfaces.  Some had an inordinate number of contours, others were canted or sloped.  The fairways had very little cut and fill work and were quite natural.
Some reminded me of Yale, with large humps in the middle.
Others had ridges or mounding, still others had landing plateaus.

As I was playing one of the par 3 holes, I noticed some work being done by a crew that didn't appear to be the club's crew.
Fortunately, I didn't hit any of the crew or the fellow who appeared to be supervising the work.
When I walked up to the green I spoted George Bahto.
He was supervising the work.

I immediately engaged him with a myriad of questions.
George not only responded, but followed us around, providing a guided tour of the work completed, the work underway and the work contemplated.

The member pointed out on hole after hole where the trees had been removed.  We also discussed how golf courses devolve over time, how one mistake seems to compound itself with more mistakes and how difficult it was to overcome the think that created many of these mistakes.

Not having seen the golf course previously, but, seeing the many seeded areas, it was clear that the tree removal program had been highly successful, although, like most clubs, more remains to be done.

On a number of holes, new back tees were being added.
Probably to offset the phantom increase in distance brought about by modern technology ;D

The golf course was very sporty, a very enjoyable member's golf course, with a tremendous amount of history.

The club seems keenly aware of that and is attempting to recapture much of the early design work while at the same time offsetting the distance issue.

Afterward, the member discussed some of the difficulty, some of the resistance to changes that most would think would be automatic.  I stated that often, club politics dictate the evolving architecture, sometimes for the better, as was the case here, and sometimes for the worse.

Pete_Pittock

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Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 01:08:26 AM »
Patrick,
It may have been Charles Campbell Worthington. "The Golf Course" said around 1900 he laid out several rudimentary courses on estates in the eastern US. These include a six-hole course on his own estate at Irvington-on-Hudson, NY.
He also gave Tillinghast his first job at Shawnee-on-Delaware.

Eric Franzen

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Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2007, 04:35:59 AM »
Good post. Thanks for sharing, Patrick

... and buy a camera!  ;)

Mike Sweeney

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2007, 05:54:41 AM »
No pics this trip, too busy being out driven by a guy on Medicaid!! Sonofagun can play!

Old thread

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=24939;start=msg462498#msg462498

Patrick,

When the restoration is complete, we should really try to get Corey and George to do a write-up with Brad Klein or Ran or similar. I do think it is one of the most interesting renovations as Gil Hanse and Company are trying to Macdonaldize the entire course, including the Tilly holes and trying to remove some of the Rees saucers. I think that you and I are two of the only ones that defend Rees at times on here but there is nothing to defend about his work at Sleepy. Maybe it was the difference from Fall to Spring, but I thought the course played and looked very different in the six months since the last visit. My only critique would be to allow George and company to work on that short green. The membership would lose a hole during the work, but maybe they could pick one up on the short course.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 06:29:35 AM by Mike Sweeney »

TEPaul

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2007, 07:53:27 AM »
Patrick:

Did I miss something or did you not identify the architect or the course?

If this course you discovered had something to do with C.C. Worthington, that would be something to definitely look into. There's a short bio about the guy in C&W and he definitely was unique in many ways, maybe even something in the Frederick Winslow Taylor mode. I didn't realize he was the guy who gave Tillinghast his first break in architecture with Shawnee on the Delaware in 1907.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 09:36:14 AM »
Pete Pittock,

I believe the fellow's name was Calvert S Winsborough.

Mike Sweeney,

The hope would be that the members, seeing the outstanding results of the project, would opt to continue to remove many more trees and recapture more and more of what was lost over the years.

The skyline green potential on # 5 is there.  Only a few trees, which serve no purpose, remain behing the green.

The removal of the poorly placed cart paths is a must.

I enjoyed the diversity of the holes.

It is amazing how the course transitions into the AWT holes and then transitions back out of them.  They certainly provide a different feel.  And, the difference in the AWT greens was startling.

One of the features I really liked was the absence of substantive cut and fill work in the fairways.  Fairways were sloped, had mounds and swales in them, turbo boosts, LZ plateaus, etc., etc..

I'd love to see the horseshoe restored to the 17th green.
It's a great hole and restoring that feature would make it a spectacular hole.

P.S.  Mike, it's Medicare, not Medicaid.
       Medicare is age driven, Medicaid is income driven.

Eric,

I intend to find a digital camera that's for idiots.  One that is immune to repeated errors and/or ignorance, that takes great pictures.

TEPaul,

The club's logo is great too.

I used to drive up to West Point, cross the river and drive down Rt 9.

I used to pass Garrison, a Dick Wilson golf course and a few others, including Sleepy Hollow, and I was always curious about them.  I intend to play Garrison this summer and would be curious to know if what exists today is Wilson or the rework of others.

The olde architecture of the buildings, walls, cemetaries and other structures along that route is something to see.

Then, you come upon the majestic Sleepy Hollow.
It's a throwback to a different era.

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 10:09:40 PM »
Could it have been (C.) Stanford White?  He was a renowned architect famed for Clubhouses who work for the Astors and the Vanderbilts.  Sleepy was the summer home of Col Sheppard who was married to a Vanderbuilt daughter.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2007, 10:15:16 PM »
A quick search turned up the evidence,  (See below)

http://www.uswamateur.org/2002/course/index.html
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

TEPaul

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 07:06:36 AM »
Patrick:

Do you think that course and property you found was the work of C.C. Worthington?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 12:06:14 PM »
Patrick:

Do you think that course and property you found was the work of C.C. Worthington?

TEPaul,

Given his connection to AWT, his nearby estate, and the six hole golf course on that estate, it's possible.

Mike Sweeney

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2007, 09:01:51 PM »

The golf course was very sporty, a very enjoyable member's golf course, with a tremendous amount of history.



Patrick,

Since the time of your last post, it is no longer a "sporty" course. The final yardage is coming out at 6830+ or so from a bunch of new championship tees. This is on a Par 70 with Yale-like terrain in spots.

There are a bunch of new bunkers on holes that we thought were finished in May.

The new 13th hole is now complete.

It could easily hold any MGA event next season.

No not a US Open, but we yell about those courses and changes.

If it is not the Best course in Westchester* now, it is the most fun?

* Have never seen Quaker or Fenway.

Phil_the_Author

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 07:48:05 AM »
Worthington did more than give Tilly his first commission at Shawnee. They were very close friends who originally met on the golf courses of Pennsylvania.

Worthington and Tilly spent many extended times together with their families. For example, I have a family photograph in my Tilly bio of Tilly's wifeLillian, her two daughters, and Mrs. Worthington, enjoying a leisurely afternoon together on a hilltop overlooking the island that would become the Shawnee CC. It was taken by Tilly in 1903, several years before Worthington purchased the property and began creating the Buckwood Inn & resort and the Shawnee CC.

Worthington owned a business that designed and built tractors and mowers for the exclusive use on golf courses. He also jumped at the idea of creating the Shawnee/Eastern Open tournament that was held at Shawnee beginning in 1912 when Tilly suggested it.

He promoted golf because it both helped his business and he loved the game.

There is a possibility that the course on his estate was designed by Tilly.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 12:00:32 PM »
Pat,

What a coincidence. Yesterday at about 11.00am PST I had a long conversation with a member who was raving about the course, he went on to say he felt that it will be the equal of a couple of the greats on Long Island. He lives across the river and now wishes he was on the club grounds.

Bob

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 06:59:25 PM »
Pat, It is amazing what one finds with ones spare time when he has no reason to spend his Saturdays watching Notre Dame football.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 08:23:39 PM »
Bob,

It's an enjoyable golf course, unique in a few ways.

I hate to compare golf courses and prefer to categorize them.

SH is sporty, challenging and fun to play.

Tiger,

Unlike many alleged College Football fans, many of whom tend to be fair weather fans when it comes to rooting for their team, I continue to watch all of their games.

Now you know why Willingham was let go.
Most forget that these are essentially his Seniors and Juniors, not Weis's.

Unlike many teams, ND doesn't schedule easy teams at the begining of their season, which has been a killer for many years.

Georgia Tech, Michigan, Penn State and Michigan State could make a lot of teams go 0-4 or 1-3.

ND didn't hire Weis for one season, or two or three, they hired him for the long haul.

It's funny to watch the "pundits" on TV.

First they claimed that Ty would get the best black players in the country to go to ND.
Now, they're saying that ND doesn't get good players, yet, for the last two years Weis's recruiting classes were ranked
# 8 in the country.  Today, noone is held accountable in the media.  THEY can say whatever they like, even if they contradict themselves, but, god forbid a politician, businessman or entertainer contradicts themselves.  If they do, the media is all over them.

Like my golf game, ND will be back.
And, they'll still graduate their student-athletes at impressive rates.

Remember, it's far easier to play good football when that's all you have to do.   ;D


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 08:25:32 PM »
an interesting and well-written post Patrick, thanks
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike Sweeney

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2007, 08:45:21 PM »

SH is sporty, challenging and fun to play.



Like my golf game, ND will be back.


Patrick,

Your views on Sleepy and ND are dated! Sleepy is no longer sporty, even since May, and ND will be back, but where?

National Championships or losing second tier bowls?

Look right now BC is on a roll and ND is taking its lumps. If we come into South Bend 6-0 and you guys are 0-6, I say it is a pick-em game because of the past.

The reality is we are small private schools playing in colder climates. USC does not count as they are the pro team of the second largest city in the US. BC may have 1 good back, ND will get 2 good backs, USC, LSC and Florida will have 3-4 with more in the wings. If Ryan goes down for BC our season is over. Look what happened when your Heisman candidate graduated?!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2007, 08:55:28 PM »
Mike,

I guess one's impression of "championship" depends on how their game relates to a golf course.

If someone's a "powder puff" off the tee they might have a different impression than a golfer who hits it 100 yards by them .... wouldn't you think ?   ;D
 
Boston and South Bend certainly aren't glamour climates.

As to Quinn, I thought he won the Heisman Trophy last year.
Who beat him out ?

BC has had a number of good coaches over the last 20 years and that influences a program dramatically.

Ryan's an underrated QB.
I don't know how solid his backup is, but BC isn't one dimensional.

You, Tiger and others need to enroll in my College Football 101 class.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 08:58:13 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Mike Sweeney

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2007, 09:17:08 PM »


You, Tiger and others need to enroll in my College Football 101 class.

Shivas (Northwestern) and Sweeney (BC) would probably be the only ones to attend. Tiger (LSU), Gib (USC) and Mr Hurricane and the others would never show!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2007, 10:22:14 PM »

Now you know why Willingham was let go.
Most forget that these are essentially his Seniors and Juniors, not Weis's.

Unlike many teams, ND doesn't schedule easy teams at the begining of their season, which has been a killer for many years.

Georgia Tech, Michigan, Penn State and Michigan State could make a lot of teams go 0-4 or 1-3.

ND didn't hire Weis for one season, or two or three, they hired him for the long haul.

It's funny to watch the "pundits" on TV.

First they claimed that Ty would get the best black players in the country to go to ND.
Now, they're saying that ND doesn't get good players, yet, for the last two years Weis's recruiting classes were ranked
# 8 in the country.  Today, noone is held accountable in the media.  THEY can say whatever they like, even if they contradict themselves, but, god forbid a politician, businessman or entertainer contradicts themselves.  If they do, the media is all over them.



LMAO...this is one of the funniest posts I've ever read on this site.

Pat, so how does this explain NDs prior two seasons in which they finished 9-3 in 2005, and 10-3 in 2006 including two BCS bowl game appearances???  After all last year was also Willinghams Juniors and Seniors right??  And the year before that was Willinghmans Juniors and below. Are you going to also "blame" that 10-3 season on those Juniors and Seniors as well?  To be fair, credit must be given where its properly due right??   8)

And if Mr.Godsend a.k.a Weis had two of the best recruiting years the last two years, are you telling me he couldn't come up with at least a handful of Freshman and Sophs that are difference makers this year??

Mr. Mucci I think you need to stick to golf because your College Football 101 class sounds like it wouldn't even be worth the price of admission..   ;D  ;D

Or perhaps its just that ND university has fallen out of the good graces of the big man upstairs??  I mean after all, if they give him the credit for the wins, he must have been asleep at the wheel to allow all those losses.   ;) :D
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 10:24:10 PM by Kalen Braley »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2007, 04:42:33 AM »

LMAO...this is one of the funniest posts I've ever read on this site.

I can see why you'd think so.
You need to attend my "Pre-College Football" Primer class as you're not yet ready for "101"
[/color]

Pat, so how does this explain NDs prior two seasons in which they finished 9-3 in 2005, and 10-3 in 2006 including two BCS bowl game appearances???  

It's simple.
Willingham went 6-5 in 2004.
Weis comes in and goes 9-3 with the SAME material.
That's coaching.
It's no different than when Paraseghian came in in 1964 and turned losing teams into winners in his first year.
[/color]

After all last year was also Willinghams Juniors and Seniors right??

Yes, and Weis coached them to a 10-3 record.

And the year before that was Willinghmans Juniors and below.
Are you going to also "blame" that 10-3 season on those Juniors and Seniors as well?  

Willingham went 6-5 with those players, Weis went 9-3 with virtually the same players.  Certainly, even someone as football challenged as yourself can recognize the difference.

The reality is that Willingham had a mediocre record at Stanford, going 44-36-1 for a 55 % win ratio.
He was a default candidate at ND, which was their mistake after their first mistake with Leary.

Bob Davie, whom TW replaced was 35-25 for a 58 % win ratio.
And, Davie's teams played more difficult schedules.
Davie had NO previous head coaching experience before being named as head coach, another mistake on ND's part, but, certainly not as big a mistake as GF, which was colossal by any standard.

Willingham is 9-17 in his first 3 years at Washington for a 34.6 % win ratio and 2-2 this year.

In your mind, who's a better coach, TW or CW ?


To be fair, credit must be given where its properly due right??  

And if Mr.Godsend a.k.a Weis had two of the best recruiting years the last two years, are you telling me he couldn't come up with at least a handful of Freshman and Sophs that are difference makers this year ??

He did, but, a handful of Frosh and Sophs don't a team make.

What year is the starting QB ?
Look at the number of freshmen and sophmores that are starting.
 
Weis and ND will be fine.  I stated long ago that it would take 5 years to rebuild the program while at the same time maintaining academic standards.  ND recruits student-athletes whom they educate and graduate, not athletes that don't graduate.
[/color]

Mr. Mucci I think you need to stick to golf because your College Football 101 class sounds like it wouldn't even be worth the price of admission..   ;D  ;D

There is no "price of admission" the classes are for free, offered "charitably" for the less fortunate or the "knowledgebly challenged".   Classes start on the first of every month, so there's plenty of time for you to enroll.
And, even if I'm overbooked for October, I'll make room for you as an emergency case.
[/color]

Or perhaps its just that ND university has fallen out of the good graces of the big man upstairs??  I mean after all, if they give him the credit for the wins, he must have been asleep at the wheel to allow all those losses.   ;) :D

Nobody that I know gives the big man upstairs credit for any wins.  To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't like to get involved, especially on Saturday's.  

Georgia Tech, Michigan (which was picked # 5), Penn State and Michigan State have a fairly good collective record this year, as do the next four opponents.  I think ND's strength of schedule ranking is currently around # 7.
[/color]


Mike Sweeney,

The problem is,
The "bad machines" don't know that they're bad.
Some participants don't attend on a voluntary basis.
Many are committed by family and/or friends, and in some occassions, by sports bar owners.

Mike Sweeney

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2007, 06:07:12 AM »
"Davie had NO previous head coaching experience before being named as head coach, another mistake on ND's part,"

__________________________________

Patrick,

Just a reminder, your current head coach had NO head coaching experience before ND either! I hope you are not going to pull out 1 year as a high school head coach on this one Pat! That puts him in below Gerry Faust!

Perhaps we should hold those 101 classes in Chestnut Hill.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 06:20:23 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Rich Goodale

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2007, 06:22:09 AM »
Pat

You're not even ready for the 101 classes!  Our beginners courses were designated "1" and even guys who failed "Football 1" would know that Willingham's 55% record was a pretty damn good one for a place like Stanford in this day and age.

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 06:23:05 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

You're not going to compare Davie's coaching experience prior to his appointment as head coach to Weis's ..... are you ?

They're light years apart.

Rich Goodale,

When TW earned his record at Stanford, the PAC 10 was woefully lacking and nowhere near today's caliber.
You should have known that.

Despite the overwhelming demand, I'm holding two seats for you and Mike.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A ride in the country with a surprise ending.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 06:29:38 PM »
For the record, I wasn't comparing the courses (SH and Yale) in the SH thread, I was comparing the significance of the CHANGES to the courses.  There's a difference.

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