[Matt_Cohn]

I've never seen so many shots end up in drains. Drop, drop, place has been the order of the day.

Does this say anything about the architecture (or construction)?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thank You Matt, Thank you for pointing this out.

[Matt_Cohn]

Update: Vijay just went drop, drop, place for the second consecutive hole (14 and 15).

Kelly Tilghman explained that there are a lot more drain covers this year because of the "brilliant" new irrigation system.

Faldo suggested that they implement Sub-Air beneath the collection areas. Is that possible?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Faldo suggested that they implement Sub-Air beneath the collection areas. Is that possible?

You wouldn't need a sub-air beneath a drain grate.
They may have sub-aired more than just the greens.

The sub-air is primarily used to suck air into the subgrade for grass growth.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I have a hard time understanding why a new irrigation system would result in more drain covers.

As to the Sub Air system, I think Faldo's assertion would be wrong.  Sub Air sucks moisture out of and pumps air into green tiles.  I have never heard it used to suck water out of drain pipes, and if those need the water sucked out, then they must not flow on a gravity basis as designed.

I don't think its a sign of anything other than good construction - if the ball is rolling to the basin, it must be in the low spot as intended!  

It does say something about the architecture, and more specifically, the need for a lot of basins when draining a flat Florida swamp when turning it into a world class golf course, and right at sea level so they could save the trees, a la Tom Doak's recent post.  And, as I mentioned, TPC was a surprise to me when I saw how many basins were in the fairways, but I did understand them.  And the news reports talk about how they wanted this thing well drained for their "5th major" no matter how much it rained, so it appears they put in a lot of drainage.

The alternate original design option would have been to import mucho fill to raise fw's, crown them (which tour pros would also hate) and drain to the rough, where other catch basins would drain off.  I have to wonder if placing the wet areas where spectators would flow was considered to be the lesser of two evils to pros dropping often on a course designed specifically for this tournament.

I don't recall this being a huge problem before, so I wonder if the problem is just now arising with the newest version of the drainage system.  You get a lot of drainage pipe in a $24M renovation project!

[Kalen Braley]

This is all very interesting...

I was watching the coverage last night on the Golf Channel and they did flyovers on several of the holes.  I noticed these little white round circles everywhere on the course. In the middle of the fairways, right infront of the green, and off to the sides of the greens.  I was thinking to myself, there is no way those can be drain covers there seems to be way too many of them....

Apparently they are...  

[Matt_Cohn]

It sounds like..

If you want:

A sea-level golf course in a swamp.
Firm, fast conditions.
Closely-mown run-offs around the greens.
And spectator mounds beyond those run-offs...

You're going to have a lot of balls roll into drains, end of story.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think the reason balls end up in drain areas more often that other areas are that drain areas are lower. At least last time I checked low points, bottoms of swales and dips were lower than tops of ridges, landforms and mounds. As for the drops, I guess that is a byproduct of artificial pipes, grates, sprinkler heads and other equipment. Since the rules of golf provide for relief from such obstacles (under local rules, sometimes), what is the problem? Does dropping a ball from an outstretched arm give the player an advantage?

[Brad Klein]

Kelly Tilghman golf course expert! Impossible to listen to.

[Kalen Braley]

Kelly Tilghman golf course expert! Impossible to listen to.

Yes indeed...but alas, easy on the eyes...  

Back on topic though, I don't think many on here are having an issue with them being on the course, but with the quantity found on the course.  Even to a weekend player such as myself, after viewing those flyovers, there seemed to be an unusally high number number of them...

[Bill_McBride]

They couldn't adjust the height of the fairways, so the only solution was more underground piping and hence more drains in low spots in fairways and rough.

We took the opposite approach at Pensacola CC when Jerry Pate Design Group completely rebuilt our course.  The long time mucky fairways were turned to get sand on top of the muck.  A series of lakes was excavated and the sand brought out was spread on the fairways.  All this built up the old fairway corridors by an average of 18".

A bunch of new drainage was installed, so we have a good mix of surface drainage into those new lakes, and a number of drains for the pipes where surface drainage just wasn't possible.

The result is that a former swampy, mucky golf course is now high and dry, fast and firm.  There are some drains yes, but not as many as I'll bet they added at TPC of Sawgrass.

[Matt_Cohn]

Forrest,

Worst-case scenario: not only does it take away a bit of continuity when a golfer has the ball in his hand, but also *every* ball goes in the same place - there's not even 3 or 4 feet of variation to provide some different challenges.

Also, I wonder if it could create a divot issue by the end of the week? Balls land in exactly the same place, so everybody drops in the same place - and of course they've all hit from those exact places in their practice rounds, too.

By the end of the week, players are desperately aiming their second drops so that they'll be able to place the ball on grass and not in a divot. The Players hinges on Jim Furyk's ability to drop a ball, almost literally, on a dime...

Hopefully not.  

[Forrest Richardson]

The Old Course has loads of locations where "nearly every" ball winds up. The Road Bunker is one example. Let's not rake that monster anymore. Rakes take away from the continuity...  

[Ken Moum]

As to the Sub Air system, I think Faldo's assertion would be wrong.  Sub Air sucks moisture out of and pumps air into green tiles.  I have never heard it used to suck water out of drain pipes, and if those need the water sucked out, then they must not flow on a gravity basis as designed.

I was told that ANGC put SubAir under the portion of the first fairway and rough where all the people coming onto the grounds disperse. IIRC the ieda was to be able to dry out the walkways across the fairway, and to prevent the hill up to the clubhouse and putting green from getting slippery.

I heard about it in 2005, and understood that it was a reaction to some people slipping on the hill in 2004.

Theoretically, a course with megabucks could put SubAir under those collection areas around the greens and do away with the grates completely--just suck the water into the drains through the turf.

Of course, you'd have to turn on the system every time it rained, and probably every time you irrigated....

Ever since I head about the ANGC application to the spectator walks, I wondered if it worked out.

Ken

[Matt_Cohn]

Forrest!

If I understand TOC correctly, bunkers developed in the spots where balls ended up most frequently. Those areas became sandy, and instead of trying with futility to grow grass, the areas were formalized as sand.

By that logic, all of those collection areas at the Players Stadium Course should be pot bunkers!!!

[Ken Moum]

Does dropping a ball from an outstretched arm give the player an advantage?

No, but the "drop, drop, place" routine certainly gives them an advantage. Any time they get the ball in their hand around the greens, they are getting an advantage.

The trouble I have with hollows with drains all around every green is that too many players end up with the ball in their hand. That and its effect on the pace of play.

Besides, it's so un-major-like.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

I have played The Old Course at St. Andrews about 15 times and never once has one of my shots wound up on top of a drain cover requiring a free drop.  That's because the drainage there is all just below the surface; the same system was copied at Kingsbarns, and we borrowed it from them for Pacific Dunes.  (It's also a hell of a lot cheaper than Sub Air.)

You can't use that system everywhere because if it freezes, you'll get dead grass ... but since it doesn't freeze in Florida, I'm surprised they did not use something like it.  I learned a lot about drainage from Pete Dye, so I'm surprised I may know a trick he doesn't!

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, a lack of drain box grates is a much better look. My point is that emulation of good draining pockets on bad draining sites does not necessarily make pockets a bad idea. There are a host of conditions in (modern) golf that we now take for granted and live with. And, for many here they may not realize that it takes 3% (or more) gradients to move water on turf, whereas it only takes a 1/3% gradient to move water in a pipe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

Pete Dye may have been the first architect to create an inverted and recylable drainage system when he built Old Marsh.

He had some major constraints and devised a system that pleased the agencies involved.

Unfortunately, this system directs golf balls in the same fashion that it directs water, into pit-like structures with drains at the bottom.

Lies get dicey because so many balls come to rest in a similar spot, and a great number of balls come to rest such that the golfers stance or the ball are on the drain, thus eligible for relief.

As much as I like Old Marsh, I don't enjoy the impact of that drainage system on the play of the golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

And, for many here they may not realize that it takes 3% (or more) gradients to move water on turf, whereas it only takes a 1/3% gradient to move water in a pipe.

How about surface drainage on good draining sand-based fairways where some will disappear into the turf..... still need 3%?

[Forrest Richardson]

Matters less, but I would still shoot for 3%. Turf has a habit of dying — in fact, it dies all the time. It also gets cut and birds shit on it. The point is that the top layer is always a science experiment...and that top layer can always (!) clog up.

Yes, 3%.

[Bill_McBride]

How is the turf doing at Las Palomas?

[Forrest Richardson]

Great. SeaDwarf is a 10.

[Bill_McBride]

When we were there in February the crew was replanting pretty good square footage - sounds like it worked fine.  Have they had enough fresh water to flush?  I guess that was the problem...

[JohnV]

Since the rules of golf provide for relief from such obstacles (under local rules, sometimes), what is the problem? Does dropping a ball from an outstretched arm give the player an advantage?

As "sport theater," it deserves a special place next to the intentional pass in baseball, the possession arrow in basketball, and the coverage of the referee under the hood in the NFL.

There has been talk about eliminating drops and just have players place the ball at the nearest point of relief.  There are those on the Rules of Golf Committee who like the idea and others who don't.  It is something that might happen someday, but I may be done officiating before it does.

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