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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2007, 08:27:35 AM »
Forrest,

I think this group is missing (due to its inherent bias) the obvious contributions (except the post noting desert golf, or as you might spell it dessert golf ;D) of Fazio and the controlled landscape as our defining design statements.

In fact, the entire world, or at least the US, has become better engineered, more man made, etc. That golf was slower than other fields to try to tame the landscape rather than reshape it is a testimony to its relative unimportance (if thats a word)

Dye is too inconoclastic to copy, as you suggest, and his style not reflective of what most of the rest of us do.  Fazio stuff looks fairly mainstream, but he pioneered putting his style on the landscape wherever it might be to create a consistent version of his ideal golf course, to a degree that CBMac only dreamed of.

Yes, some may consider it a MacDonalds (rather than the CB MacDonald) approach, but that is the way most other fields are going.  Yes, we may lament the "standardization (sp to make Forrest feel better) of golf, but that is the tendency of the human mind, so we can make sense of the world.

While his (or Dye or RTJ) style may simply be building on something else (as I suspect was the case in all design eras) the fact that he has put it all together to the highest degree does make it a breakthrough.

Just my .02
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2007, 10:41:10 AM »
Forrest,

I think this group is missing (due to its inherent bias) the obvious contributions (except the post noting desert golf, or as you might spell it dessert golf ;D) of Fazio and the controlled landscape as our defining design statements.

In fact, the entire world, or at least the US, has become better engineered, more man made, etc. That golf was slower than other fields to try to tame the landscape rather than reshape it is a testimony to its relative unimportance (if thats a word)

Dye is too inconoclastic to copy, as you suggest, and his style not reflective of what most of the rest of us do.  Fazio stuff looks fairly mainstream, but he pioneered putting his style on the landscape wherever it might be to create a consistent version of his ideal golf course, to a degree that CBMac only dreamed of.

Yes, some may consider it a MacDonalds (rather than the CB MacDonald) approach, but that is the way most other fields are going.  Yes, we may lament the "standardization (sp to make Forrest feel better) of golf, but that is the tendency of the human mind, so we can make sense of the world.

While his (or Dye or RTJ) style may simply be building on something else (as I suspect was the case in all design eras) the fact that he has put it all together to the highest degree does make it a breakthrough.

Just my .02

Jeff, I'm afraid you are correct.   "Manufactured" golf is becoming the norm, particularly where "signature" courses of the highest-priced architects are concerned.

Unfortunately, this countervails what I think should be the best trend to keep golf growing for all segments of society - affordability.  The prevailing, highly desired trend, at least in so far as real estate development is concerned, is fighting the need for affordabililty in an era of declining growth in new construction.

Is golf going to continue to be less accessible for the masses?  Or is there a way to segment the industry to meet the needs of competing agendas?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2007, 12:12:14 PM »
Adam and Bill,

I am not sure this is a day and age of "massive fees" and unaffordability as you.  Just as we focus on the 0.0002% of golfers who hit it over 300 yards, we focus on the few high end gca's who command big marketing fees.  Most of the market isn't that way.

As to golf fees, I think public golf is very affordable right now, more so than 30 years ago, looking at some greens fees and the CPI calculator.  There are also a wide variety across the spectrum of quality/price, moreso than in the past.

Golf construction has rarely ever paid for itself.  Golf has always been made affordable by subsidizing construction cost through housing, wealthy people paying initiation fees or public funds for public courses and "public good."  Or, in purchasing courses second or third hand (like restaurants) at bargain prices so that the greens fee doesn't need to reflect the cost of construction.

For example, residents of Newton KS and thereabouts can play a pretty fine golf course for under $30, including carts, because the city and developer worked out a deal to the benefit of both.  Using the CPI back to about 1970, that would have been about a $7 green fee back then, which is what I recall courses charging then, so things haven't gotten worse on the cost side. Now, the income side of the lower middle class may have slipped a little after inflation and taxes, but that is beyond the control of golf courses, isn't it?

The architecture that is remembered, whether golden age or current, is state of the art, leading stuff, and that is what Forrest seems to be asking about.  Do we remember the public courses of any era?

And, even for a low end course, like Newton, where I had to move over 480,000 CY of earth, some of it was paid for as "detention" as the course functioned that way.  But it cost less than $2CY, so even if I had cut that by 75% to 120,000 CY of earthmoving, it would have saved $720,000 on a $7 Million (total) project, or about 10% - but of course there would have been flooding problems!  

You might think that greens fees might have dropped from $30 to $27 in theory.  But really, the city is probably paying no more than $60K in debt on that cost per year, which breaks out to only $2 per round over 30,000 rounds.  And, the better drainage (feels slings and arrows coming......) may actually save ops costs and increase revenues.

If this was a high end course, that $2 wouldn't affect whether anyone joined, paid the green fee, etc. In fact, the high end club joiners seem to delight in overpaying for a lot of stuff as status, and who am I to deny them that pleasure?  I wonder if a Palmetto Golf Club in Aiken would really work today as a club model.

Short version - there is not as strong a correlation between design styles and affordability as many people seem to think.  It costs what it costs (within reason) and the market, operations costs and other things drive the greens fee as much as debt service.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2007, 10:21:05 AM »
Jeff (and others ) —

But, even when we are speaking of (and creating) these municipal, retention-driven, low-budget venues, is it not possible to make them memorable, less cookie-cutter and have the occasional great hole that elevates the experience and fun?

Maybe we need to focus — per McBride — on this idea of (this era) focusing on affordable golf that is NOT predictable.

---

P.S.  In Arizona we spell desert "dessert" because we have extra s's lying around in old ghost towns.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2007, 11:00:22 AM »
Forrest,

I don't think modern publics are that predictable. In fact, I think that most of us gca's are designing those better than ever, based on what I see.  

Taking my previous Newton course as an example, it has a Redan, Road Hole green, an Alps, a Mae West, sideways biarritz and several others sans name that I think the average Kansas public golfer will find far less than predictable.

So, you would have to define predictable for me, I suppose.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2007, 11:08:01 AM »
That sounds very interesting — and I think the public will enjoy it. Besides the hash of concepts, is there anything there you will point to and say: "This has never been done before...this is a new direction."?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2007, 11:26:54 AM »
Jeff:

I could have predicted you would build all of those features in Newton.  Maybe Kansans are just a little slow.  ;)

Forrest:

I appreciate your comments earlier regarding Pacific Dunes.  

Back when I built High Pointe, I did choose to err on the side of doing too little rather than too much, just because I'd seen so many modern courses (including the one just down the road) which had done the opposite.  Gradually, as I've gotten more practiced in the arts of shaping and earthmoving, I'm less afraid to do it where I think it's warranted because I'm more confident that I can pull it off and make it look natural, which has always been the most important thing to me.

As for brand-spanking-new directions for architecture -- frankly I am not sure there are any.  I've recently been asked to write a long foreword for a book on the evolution of golf architecture, and I've chosen to divide it into three eras.  The last of them, the "modern era", is 1946 to the present, when the use of modern construction equipment and the treatment of golf as a business changed architecture forever.  

I don't believe the present day is deserving of its own "postmodern" label as some have tried to classify it ... I think we are getting more practiced in our craft, but that we haven't had any real breakthroughs.  To me, it's more about making the most out of the land you've got.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2007, 11:52:34 AM »
That sounds very interesting — and I think the public will enjoy it. Besides the hash of concepts, is there anything there you will point to and say: "This has never been done before...this is a new direction."?

If I have a "new direction" its exploring the use of fewer bunkers and more use of other types of grass hazards.

I am also leaning towards making my green contours the prime hazards, feeling that hazards outside the green just don't challenge the best players anymore.  

Lastly, I keep increasing my fw contours in hopes that playing off an unlevel lie creates different shots every time you play where bunker patterns and other strategic features really don't.

I continue to design kick in banks of various types.

Whether any of those constitute something with a strong enough difference to call it a new direction, I don't know, and certainly, fewer bunkers and the others have been used before.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2007, 12:06:50 PM »
Tom D,

No need to insult Kansans!  If you can predict what I might do in Kansas, you spend too much time thinking about me.....I really don't do those holes every course.

There was a method to the madness - for starters I wanted something completely different than either the tournament tough Colbert Hills or the predictable Eagle Bend muni in Lawernce.

Second, I doubt I would do a ode to the Alps (or many other Raynor holes) in suburban NY, since the locals would have seen those somewhere else.  But, since Newton is on the fringe of the less sophisticated (designwise) Wichita market, my judgement was that a few templates and out of the ordinary holes MIGHT make a few more golfers drive past the courses they needed to to play Sand Creek.

So, those holes are truly different for them (and please recall, only a handful of privleged others can travel and play all the great courses).  Back to Forrest's question - if its different in a market does it need to be groundbreaking and different in the world view?  I think not. It might be possible to go so far over the top in conservative KS that no one would come play.  

And what good is ground breaking architecture if no one comes to see it?  In one sense, gca isn't like buildings that more or less have to get used by the Owner once built.  On public courses in KS or anywhere, people choose to use by paying a greens fee.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2007, 12:31:51 PM »
Jeff:

That seems to be a discussion better suited to the "templates" thread, so I've responded there.

I have no desire to build Pacific Dunes in every market.  It would be impossible, anyway.  I know you haven't played Ballyneal yet, but when you do, if you see a hole which is quite similar to any hole at Pacific Dunes, let me know.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2007, 01:58:39 PM »
I think, Jeff, that your ideas are — like mine and many others — old ideas reconstituted and made interesting because they have all but been cloaked from modern golfers.

As Tom says, "To me, it's more about making the most out of the land you've got..." That, too, is nothing new — but "made new" because we have seen so little of it in the past 50 years.

I guess it begs the continued question: What should Tom D. have written in his "modern" intro section — had many of us been more daring and breakthrough?

Or, is it enough that in this age of tremendous awareness of golf design we are mostly re-hashing things that seem neat, cool and "lost" in an age of modern earthmoving and equipment?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Bill_Yates

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2007, 02:25:59 PM »
Forrest,
What might be helpful is not to look at the art form (architecture) itself, but to look at the culture in which the art form exists.  In college we had a course called "The History of Arts and Civilization" which was one of the most rigorous courses I have ever taken.  What we did was study how art forms such as, art, music, poetry, drama, architecture, etc. reflected the civilizations in which they grew and flourished.  The trick was to understand how politics, technology, medicine, commerce, etc. all had an effect on each other, as well as the various art forms. We were asked to look at an art form with a view from 10,000 feet.

That being said, perhaps if we viewed golf course architecture through the prism of the American civilization from 1946 to the present (per Tom Doak), we might find the elements in our civilization and culture that directly and indirectly had a major impact on this art form.  It might then become easier to spot the course design "breakthrough's" in context.  

So let me throw out the idea that technology in the form of earthmoving equipment, turf science, computer design systems, irrigation, playing equipment, home building techniques and efficiencies, etc. all directed the outcomes of today's architecture.

Forrest said, "Very often I reflect on what we are doing - not just in my office, but in offices everywhere - and I question (softly) whether it is right."  And Tom Doak said, "I'm less afraid to do it (moving earth) when I think it's warranted because I'm more confident that I can pull it off and make it look natural, which has always been the most important thing to me."  

I believe that the breakthrough of our age that had a major impact on our art form is technology.  Technology has given our generation the ability to create the "natural" out of the "unnatural."  Now with such tools and choices, designs of this age can vary widely from looking "natural" to looking "unnatural."   Perhaps this is why Forrest feels conflicted, as his marvelous Links at Las Palomas design seemingly includes both ends of this spectrum, causing him to softly ask whether it is right.  Therefore, maybe courses like this are the breakthrough courses of our age.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Kalen Braley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2007, 04:07:56 PM »
Tom,

Interesting comments about the evolution of golf and where you see it going.  That being said, what is your take on Jim Enghs work?  From what I've seen in photos, its hard to pick any prior architect that his work resembles.  I haven't yet formed a "real" opinion on his work, but hope to begin to do so after playing Lakota and Redlands in a couple of weeks.

From what I've seen in photos though, its seems to be pretty unique and unlike other courses I've seen.  As you've seen a plethora of courses what category would you classify his work in?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2007, 04:12:30 PM »
Forrest,

How can we move forward with new ideas when the dominant force in golf architecture today - this website - tells us to look back as our only salvation? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2007, 04:20:05 PM »
Forrest and Jeff,

I'm curious what your guys' take is on Jim Enghs work as well.  His work is the only I've seen that really looks new and innovative going back over the last 10 years or so.  But you 2 have much more background in this, what are your thoughts on what he is doing?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 04:20:23 PM by Kalen Braley »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2007, 04:26:02 PM »
Kalen,

Jim followed me at Dick Nugent's office and I still see a lot of Dick in his work.  Same scale, some of the same green mounding back drops, many alternate fw shots, etc.  He does seem to have taken it to a bolder level, but Dick did that too, mostly through the work of the late Bruce Borland who upsized things in scale.

One difference in his work from Dick is the jagged bunkers. Dick preferred simple front edges and lacy top/back edges, whereas Jim shapes his bunkers on all sides and makes them deeper.  I know Jim has a fondness for trees very near greens that is his own preference, aside from any training he recieved.

Jim went on to some construction work, and then worked in Europe for Langer so he has had some other influences as well.  But I still see a lot of Nugent in his ideas and work, including very accurate plans.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2007, 04:36:02 PM »
Kalen:

Jim Engh is one of the only golf architects I have ever been acquainted with who has no fear of building things which look totally unnatural.  He doesn't try at all to blend things in, and the look is so jarring to me that I have a hard time seeing past it.

That decision does free him up to build all sorts of "outside the box" designs which have never been seen before.  Some people think that's a great thing.  But, if he's going to go that route, he should keep going ... I've seen four of his courses and they all have many of the same types of holes, despite dramatically different settings.

Kalen Braley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2007, 04:40:27 PM »
Thanks Jeff,

I'll do some looking around at Dick's work and see what I can find.

As for Jims work, he seems to create many greens where you have to be accurate in either distance or direction, i.e skinny looking greens that run either perpendicular or parallel to the line of the fairway/tee box.  I like that he is willing to take chances like he did at Black Rock in northern idaho.  A few of those green sites that sit amidst the massive rock formations are quite interesting.  I know he made a few artificial waterfalls as well, but they are at least kind of cool looking as opposed to the massively over-the-top ones that Trump does.

As for innovations in golf design for the future... from what I can tell it appears to be really tough to do this without being over the top and making borderline unplayable holes.  Dismal River comes to mind as a course that took more than a bit of abuse here for some of its "over-the-topness".  The interesting part is, as far as I can tell, Jack was trying to go minimilaist on that course, yet many critized it for looking too artificial.

Kalen

Kalen Braley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2007, 04:56:28 PM »
Kalen:

Jim Engh is one of the only golf architects I have ever been acquainted with who has no fear of building things which look totally unnatural.  He doesn't try at all to blend things in, and the look is so jarring to me that I have a hard time seeing past it.

That decision does free him up to build all sorts of "outside the box" designs which have never been seen before.  Some people think that's a great thing.  But, if he's going to go that route, he should keep going ... I've seen four of his courses and they all have many of the same types of holes, despite dramatically different settings.

Tom,

Outside the box is a key component to innovation, at least in my mind. In addition as you alluded to, he has an outlet to get those ideas out there and I too hope he continues to push the envelope.  While it may turn out gimmicky or unnatural, I think this is a doable road to new concepts in golf hole design.

As for having similar holes, I'll keep an eye out for it with the upcoming trip.  I've heard they are two of his best regarded works, so it should be interesting.

All this being said, do you ever get inspiration or an idea from what you've seen someone else doing and then run with it? I don't mean copying here, but more along the lines of adding your twist to it with your own style.

As an example, and I may be completely off base on this one, but it seems like many of the courses Jack has done since Sebonack incorporate jagged/rough edged bunkering that you've done for many years prior.

Tom_Doak

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2007, 05:15:42 PM »
Kalen:

I love going to see other courses and see what someone else has done.

Generally, though, I make changes in my work on more conceptual grounds.  For example, I'll see another course and think their greens are too big and maybe ours are getting too big ... or that our bunkers are too far away from the greens ... or the tee shots are too straight ... or the ideal landing area sometimes ought to be 220 yards off the tee and not 280.

It's also great to have a reality check on what is a severe green and what isn't, by going to see a course which has some.  I think at Sebonack we simply reminded Jack of some features (like a crowned green) which he'd played many times in other places, but hadn't built anytime lately.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 05:17:19 PM by Tom_Doak »

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2007, 12:40:28 AM »
I have repeated this here several times:

"The invention of the typewriter did not necessarily make for better poetry."

           — Saul Bass, esteemed graphic designer

Saul, a friend, died several years ago in Los Angeles. He made this comment regarding technology and design — graphic design specifically. But, I feel it holds true for many, if not all, design endeavors.

Bill — Yes, technology has been a defining theme of our current era. However, I find truth in Saul's wisdom. Better poetry it does not make in all cases. I think many here would agree.

Jeff — Ahhhhh. Yes. The golfclubatlas.com "truth" seems nearly always to thwart the poor chap who does anything but what many here have seen before in — especially — old books and Xeroxes of Golf Illustrated, blurry aerial images from pre-1940 and fuzzy drawings by Willie Watson, who I recently have found never built anything even remotely looking like what he or his draftsmen actually drew.

Engh's work was cited a few pages ago. Personally I think it may well represent the kind of thing I refer to. At least on occasion.

I am grateful for the recent responses. Let's keep going...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 12:40:50 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2007, 06:16:36 AM »
Forrest.....I think one of the uniquely modern changes may be too big to notice......even to those designers that utilize this change.......................even to Y :oU my friend!

Its something that most of the Old Dead Guys would marvel at if they could come back for a day.

....and its something many of us designers do without much thought or fanfare....because its become a common and accepted NEW design tool.

What do you suppose this modern OUR age new thing could be?



Its the creation and use of Mega Landforms.

Shadow Creek probably came first [don't bother me with Lido, which NLE, and wasn't at all representative of the efforts of the time], but you don't have to look any farther than the designers from this thread to see its use.

the Rawls Course, Las Palomas, some of the stuff we do.....its common.

Its become common for many of us to go the route of: if its not there.....build it.

If there is nothing there to tie into to begin with, well then just go out and create whatever landform suites your taste and then go drape your course over it.....create your own tie ins......while you are busy creating everything else!

The creative scope is much more massive than ever before.....maybe too massive for many to notice.

I'm finishing a course where I built 40 acres of FAUX ricefields just to create a natural setting in which to tie in four holes.

These 40 acres where all previously upland.....its a new scale thing.

Its the Age of the Mega Landform.....a Modern Marvel.





...I'm toast....who are you?...are you a toasted person too?
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 09:28:51 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2007, 08:47:02 AM »
Paul:

That's an interesting entry, the mega landform.  I'm trying to think of the first instance I know of.

On the very first course I worked on, at Long Cove in 1981, Mr. Dye built a 15-foot-high berm to the left of holes 6, 7 and 8 to block the view of a power line corridor along the boundary of the property.  I suppose it wasn't much bigger than the spectator mounds he'd built at the TPC, and maybe that's what gave him the idea.  But it wasn't just for landscape purposes; he built the sixth and seventh greens and the eighth tee and green into the berm, too, which he didn't really do on any of the holes at the TPC.

I doubt that is the first instance of such a feature, but I can't think of another right now ... can anyone?

paul cowley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2007, 09:34:43 AM »
Tom....I can't think of an earlier one......but I bet as a youngster you marvelled while watching Pete built that landform at Longcove, thinking whoa...what is this dude up to?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 01:23:25 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

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Re:A mind is a terrible thing to waste...
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2007, 09:44:49 AM »
Actually I can........when the Seaside 9 was created for Sea Island, it was all built on dredge material from the nearby river, in 1928 I recall.......but this one and Lido were far from the norm of their day.

Even the Raynor/Landford/Banks et al efforts of that time were puny compared to now.

No....Pete probably was one of the first. Definitely one of the first to not let dirt intimidate him.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca