[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

How does the quality of golf in Europe (sans GBI) compare with Australia or Asia or Africa? The diversity of sites and the strength of the architects would seem to be superior.

[Mike Clayton]

Tom
On the continent they have some terrific courses -thanks mainly to Colt and Tom Simpson.
If you were to compare them to Australia -were all the best courses have Mackenzies influence stamped all over them-you would have to say the continent has nothing to compare to Royal Melbourne.Probably not Kingston Heath,Royal Adelaide or NSWGC either.
However their best five or six would easily make up a composite top ten of the two continents.
Morfontaine
Royal Zoute
El Saler
Kennemer
The Hague
De Pan
Chantilly
They were my favourites but they have some good old ones just below them.
I never saw anything in Asia that even came close to being in that top 10.The course in Dehli was pretty good -the best I played in Asia but they had redone some holes and i suspect they didn't improve it at all.
Royal Calcutta wasn't bad either -apparantly it is the oldest course in the world outside the UK.
I also remember a course in Seoul -Seoul CC I think- that we played in 1983 and I remember thinking it was good but I am also assuming I had not much of a clue then either.
The only course I saw in Africa was in Jo'berg -Houghton and it wasn't close.
All rave about Durban CC though.
You are right about the diversity of sites in Europe.
There are some beauties by the sea and some great stuff through the sandy heathland.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I wonder if the courses of the Continent were quite a bit better prior to WWII than they are now. I get the impression many of the links courses were greatly effected by the war. In fact I know they were, my father lived in Holland in the 30's and several of the courses he enjoyed were destroyed. And unfortunately Colt, Simpson and many of the others were inactive following the war. Perhpas Daniel Wexler should write a lost courses of the World follow up, with all the dunes along the northern coast of Europe and the first-class architects at the time, you'd think there were would've been at least a couple of top shelf courses.

Mike
Have you seen any of the best courses in Japan? Wouldn't they be the strength of Asia? A similar case to Australia, in that all the best courses have the stamp of a single architect - Alison.

[Paul Turner]

I recently did some searching for French and Spanish courses designed by Colt:

St Germain.  I found these poor quality pics.  The bunkers look quite interesting to my eye, but the course looks overgrown with broom!  It's a famous course that hosted the French Open when Seve was at his peak.









Couldn't find anything for St Cloud.

Found a single miniscule image for Glanville, a links in Normandy.  One reviewer said it was like playing golf on the moon!?



I did see some photos of  Puerta Del Hierro in Madrid.  (Again a Euro tour stop in the 80s.)  I've seen some dramatic early pictures of this course, and did find a link to some modern photos but can’t find it now.  The course looks to be on good rolling terrain.


Tom

I'm not aware of any famous Dutch/Belgique links that were lost in the Wars (other than Abercrombie's original 9 holes at Hague).  I think all the most famous links were restored.  Guy Campbell appears to be involved in restoring some of these.

[Paul Turner]

Mike

I walked the course in Dehli and thought it was good too.  Very interesting Moghul temples around the course!

Played Bali Handara a couple of weeks ago; it's graceful and beautiful, but not fantastic.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
The resort at Knocke originally had three courses, one of which survived the war. My father played most of his golf at Nordwijke which was also lost and rebuilt nearby. Biarritz had two courses, there was also a course in the south of France near Italy called Sospel which was admired.

[Paul Turner]

Tom

I would really like to know what happened at Knocke.  Like you state, I think Colt built those original links before WW1.  But Seymour Dunn is often credited Royal Zoute which is the "new" name for Knocke.  I think Dunn worked there in 1925, and I wonder if the current course is his or Colt's or a combo?

Do you know who built the original Noodwiijk?

Also, anyone played a 12 hole Colt course called De Dommel?

[Steve Okula]

St Germain is definitely worth the visit for anyone in the Paris area, I think it dates from 1921 and I don't think it's been tampered with at all. It is NOT overgrown with "broom" or anything else. It's not over-manicured, but probably it's like the architect intended. The old original push-up soil greens are pure Poa annua - fast, true, and smooth. Bunker placement may be described as "quirky", as most holes have some located within 50 meters of the tees. A few of the holes are a bit flat and non-descript. It's short by today's standards, but a joy to see and play.  

In France, at least, there are a number of Colt and Simpson designs still more or less intact, I hear. I'm sorry I haven't gone out to visit more of them yet.

Anyone interested in golf in Europe would do well to start with the Peugeot Golf Guide, published by D&G Motte in Switzerland.  It lists about 1000 European courses with (English) critiques, descriptions, locations, contact information, architects, dates of openings, and a rating scale (not the Doak one). The Guide is available in Pro shops in Europe, but I don't know how you get it elsewhere.  

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Anybody know anything about Royal Ostend, near De Haan?  The "golf belgium" website says, in effect:  "1903, not a clue who designed it, but the most authentic links in Belgium."

I'm going to be staying 2 miles from there for a week in late October.  How hard should I try to get away from the family to scope it out?

Cheers

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Years ago I had the opportunity to play the "Club de Golf Estoril" just outside Lisbon, very ritzy but funky course.  One drop shot par 3 must have been 150 below the tee!  But I did catch a glimpse of the then-exiled king of Spain on an adjacent fairway.  At least that's who the caddies said it was!

[Mike Clayton]

Tom
I havn't seen any of the famous Japanese courses but you are right about the stamp of one man.
It seems like Alison did all the good stuff there.
There is a good 36 hole club outside of Tokyo -Ibiraki- where the Dunlop tournament was every year. It's called something else now.
But -8 par three's on the 2 courses and there was only one under 190 yards and it was about 180.
A couple were drivers -250 yards and in April, about 45 degrees-and most of the rest were 3 woods or 2 irons.
It seems like massive par 3's are a characteristic of Japanese courses.

Paul
I've always wanted to go to Bali Handara .It got a lot of publicity here because Peter Thomson did it.

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

Here's the website, I found it a while back.  It looks reasonably interesting, probably worth checking out (12th looks the best hole).  But how close is Zoute?  That looks really special.

http://www.golfoostende.be/

[Steve Okula]

Rich Goodale,

The original architect of Oostende was Tom Simpson. Martin Hawtree "restyled" it in 1990. Holes 5-10 are supposedly a true links style. Not much trees or water but a lot of wind.

[Steve Okula]

Bill McBride,

I don't think that the king of Spain has ever been exiled, at least not in the 20th/21st centuries. As far as I know, the reigning King Carlos, who has been on the throne since Franco died at least, doesn't play golf.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Thanks Paul and Steve

I would highly recommend Paul's link above to Royal Ostend (Oostende) for anyone interested in GCA and history.  Having your course twice ocupied and destroyed for the construciton of coastal defences by the German army somehow puts problems of the style of bunker edging by "Open Doctors" in a bit of perpsective.......

Paul

I'll be only 15 miles or so from Zoute (Belgium is tiny, as you know).  As a matter of fact it is a very serendipitous place I have chosen for my family holoday relative to European golf.  Quelle surprise!

Now if I can just find a place to park the sprogs for 4 hours or so.........

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
Trying to track down who did what in Belgium is very difficult. Each course has at least two or three names. And the clubs are notorious in not knowing who did what to their courses. I think that Seymour Dunn was the original designer of the 2nd (the 1st course is long gone) course at Knocke early on around 1908. I believe he was living in the US in 1925. Colt then remodeled the 2nd course and built a new third course in 1910. I'm not sure what effect the Wars had those two course, but I suspect they are largely still Colt's.

Richard
Ostende otherwise known as Coq-de-mer aka Koninklijke looks to be built on the dunes, thats about all I know about its quality - I think it is considered a 'holiday course.' Which I interpret as short. I don't believe Simpson was the original architect in 1903, but must have remodeled it at a later date. And then, as Steve says, young Hawtree got his hands on it.

[Pablo]

Bill_McBride and Steve Okula,

The father of current spanish king lived exiled for many years in Portugal (so he was the legitimate king during that exile) but never got the legal status of king as he already was born when the royal family fleed to Italy (in the early 1930's) and when monarchy returned he abdicated in favor of his son Juan Carlos.

Hope this helps

[Paul Turner]

Tom

Here the link to the Zoute website:

http://www.zoute.be/golfeng.htm

I think this is where I mistakenly got the 1925 date.  Not that much info, but it looks like a new course was built after WW1.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
To be honest, I'm not sure. There is an excellent account of Belgium golf in Colt & Alison's book.

[Paul Turner]

Tom

The plot thickens:

ROYAL ZOUTE GOLF CLUB CADDIESPAD 14, 8300 KNOKKE-HEIST PHONE: 050-60 12 27

 Golf was first played at Knokkee at the turn of the century when the club was an offshoot of Bruges Golf & Sports Club. It assumed its own identity in 1909 and the current courses were designed after World War II by Lt Col Allen. The quality of the main course, laid out over undulating ground with a profusion of trees is such that the Belgian Open was held there. It is a delightful course; the humps and hillocks of the fairways and the excellent greens, which are well protected by bunkers, make it a good test for any golfer, especially when the wind is blowing. THE COURSE: 18 hole par 72 (and a par 64 course), 6172m Located on the outskirts of Knokke north of Bruges. Visitors are welcome but must book in advance. FEES: BF1700 - 2500 FACILITIES: Bar and restaurant closed Monday; Practice ground


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very confusing indeed!  Any suggestions for this Allen chap?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
I've never heard of that guy either. I read another account that claims they undertook a major change in 1930. You need to get over there and get to the bottom of this. Understand its a bitch to play in wooden shoes.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
The Flemish play in wooden shoes don't they? The way I understand it: the first course was built at Bruges around the turn of the century by locals who placed jars in the ground. That course was abandoned in 1908 for a new course at a new location (possibly designed by Dunn). In 1910 Colt came in and revised the short 1908 course and built a new championship test. In 1930 someone came in (perhaps Colt again, I'm not sure) and built a third course. Evidently all were destroyed during the war. Nine holes were restored in 1945, and by 1947 there were 36 holes in play - evidently thanks to Allen.

Was Sir Peter Allen in the military?

[Jeroen_Pit]

To add to the confusion: Fred Hawtree's Colt & Co claims Royal Zoute was an Abercromby original with remodeling done by John Morrisson.......

In the Netherlands both the Haagsche and Noordwijk used to be at other locations. The Haagsche used to on an estate on the northern fringe of The Hague called Clingendael. This site was used in the second worldwar as a V1 launching site. After the war the club bought a private course at the current location.  Not exactly sure when this new course was built. One of the course guides from the Haagsche claims this course was built in 1939 but the newer course guide claims this was in 1924. Hawtree's Colt & Co refers to a letter where Alison was involved with the seeding of the greens in 1939 so I assume 1939 is the correct date.

For pictures of Royal Zoute, Haagsche and more see: www.nlnl.fsnet.co.uk

The original Noordwijkse (9 holes) was more towards the village of Noordwijk itself. Twenty years ago you could still see some of the old holes. I don't know who designed it.

Paul,  I did not know de Dommel was a Colt design. The course is 18 holes nowadays but was founded in 1928 so Colt may have been involved. I never played it but heard it is nice although not comparable the De Pan, Eindhoven or Hilversum.

(I finally got my CD writer up and running and I will put the CD in the mail this week).

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Jeroen
My father taught at the unversity at Leiden in the 30's and played most of his golf at Noordwijkse. At that time it was 18 holes, he saved one of their old scorecards.

Who designed the original Haagsche course?

[Paul Turner]

Tom and Jeroen

Abercrombie built the original Haagsche course.  I think it was only 9 holes.  The 1924 date probably refers to this course at Clingendael and the formation of the club.

There's a club history at the USGA which I can't read.  I'll scan the relevent pages and perhaps you could translate for us Jeroen?  From the little I can make out, I think that this course was primarily a CH Alison responsibility.

I just got an email back from Zoute.  It simply said that Dunn,Colt and Allen all contributed to the current course.  Not very precise, but then not many courses go through 2 ground wars!  I'll pester him some more!

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