Architectural Disasters

[Bill Gayne]

Threads like this and holes such as Muirhead's "Jaws" always bring me back the Shackelford's book, Grounds For Golf, and chapter 5 titled "Comic Relief." It's one of the best chapters in any golf book.

[Forrest Richardson]

Desmond deserves more than "indulgent artsy-ness" as Brad puts it. He was a deep thinker, never afraid to speak his mind or share an idea. In fact, he was never afraid of anything — at least anything that he admitted to be afraid of.

I recall him fondly saying to me, "Forrest, I don't give a damn what people think anymore...and that includes that Whitten chap. Did you know he is trained as a city prosecutor? He's no different than 99% of the golfing public, other than someone decided he could form a sentence and deserved a job at a magazine...

"More than half — no, make that most — of the people writing about golf courses don't have a bloody clue what the public wants, needs or cares about. For that matter, they don't know a damn thing about golf course design...

"And that's the truth..." [his favorite ending sentence]

Desmond was a true renaissance man. He had so many great abilities, charm and passion. He eyes twinkled from beginning to end — more than just about anyone I can recall in this business, he believed deeply in what he said, wrote and created.

Mostly, he was not farad to take chances and try new things. An awful lot of what we take for granted as good design in modern golf layout was tested by Muirhead as he plodded through the 1970s and 1980s with literally hundreds of employees and scores of clients.

[Forrest Richardson]

Oh, and many of you have so aptly classified this as a diaster, including Adam Lawrence recently in the UK publication, Golf Course Architecture.

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
I wasn't especially enamored with Kearney Hill either, however, it seemed like a fairly "blah" site compared to some of the other courses in the area to begin with.

I believe that course was much more P.B Dye than Pete Dye, for what that's worth.

Glenn and I will still have to agree to disagree about Longaberger. I've played better courses, but its hardly a disaster (ok...other than #4).

[Doug Ralston]

Andy;

P B Dye does have a 'hidden gem' in the SE Indiana area, which Glenn WILL agree with me. It is Buck Point. Worth a see.

I have not played Longaberger, so I cannot speak to it [unlike so many who 'agree' that Bay Harbor that they have not played is weak]. But if ever possible, you MUST play in Eastern Kentucky. The two KY State Park Signature courses, Eagle Ridge [Hills/Forrest], and Hidden Cove [Ault], are real gems.

Doug

[Ted Kramer]

Oh, and many of you have so aptly classified this as a diaster, including Adam Lawrence recently in the UK publication, Golf Course Architecture.

I love it!

-Ted

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, Ted, you are the 1 of 8. Thank you.

[Tim Bert]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I'll throw #4 at Gillette Ridge (along with a number of other holes on the course) in the ring.  It usually comes to mind as one of the worst I've played.

Mr. Whitten does a good job of summarizing the hole in his Golf Digest review, but somehow he mentions that this is one of the holes that won him over...  

"The green on the 182-yard par-3 fourth is shaped like a frankfurter, 60 yards long and just 12 yards wide"

Perhaps I'm just so frustrated by the time I get to #4 because #2 and #3 are such difficult holes (and not architectural masterpieces themselves) that I can't see the real beauty of the design.

There's a photo (though small and not high quality) available here:
http://tinyurl.com/yojprs


 

[Brad Klein]

TEP,

when leisure suits were in I was broke and in my twenties, thus my look then was jeans, tee shorts, dark glasses, a beard, not a leisure suit. I think my parents had them -- reason enough to avoid them.

[Jordan Wall]

Forrest,

That is truely a weird looking hole.
Is it a disaster?
Sheesh, I have no clue, I've never played the bloody thing.
But it looks weird, and in my eyes, that cant make it all bad.
 

Cheers,
Jordan

[Andy Troeger]

Andy;

P B Dye does have a 'hidden gem' in the SE Indiana area, which Glenn WILL agree with me. It is Buck Point. Worth a see.

Doug

I didn't mean that to mean anything bad against P.B. Dye, other than to say that his resume does not quite compare with his father. I'm not that familiar with his work, other than Kearney Hill and Mystic Hills in Indiana.

[David_Elvins]

Forrest,

Thanks for the photo.  I would be intersted to hear your thoughts behind the design. What direction and elevation does the golfer see this green from?

[Jordan Wall]

This hole..good, bad?

A disaster?
A success?

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know if I'm one to speak of its merits...

But the day I played it, it was playing 155 yards to the pin into a 10-15 MPH wind.  Much harder than the 17th at TPC...

[Joe Hancock]

Jordan,

Does that picture have on the back "Wish you were here" and a place for a stamp? An appropriate use of the hole, IMO....

Joe

[Jordan Wall]

I don't know if I'm one to speak of its merits...

But the day I played it, it was playing 155 yards to the pin into a 10-15 MPH wind.  Much harder than the 17th at TPC...

A much bigger green though, however in that case, is #17 at TPC a disaster.

[Jerry Kluger]

A friend of mine who is an outstanding player is a member at Pine Valley, Huntington Valley and Stone Harbor - enjoys playing Stone Harbor the most.

Desmond was clearly interested in pushing the envelope but sometimes he forgot who his audience was.  His work at Aberdeen CC in Boynton Beach, Florida was quite extreme and really didn't work for the membership. For example, the 4th is a par 5 that goes around a small man made lake and normally cannot be reached in 3 shots but there is an alternative route - an island fairway - it is a very small target and then the second shot from the island is perpendicular to the fairway.

[Sean Leary]

This hole..good, bad?

A disaster?
A success?

A success.  People come to play this course because of this hole only. It is otherwise very forgettable.

[Gary Slatter]

Several Doral Blue course renovations come to mind, also the White Course first renovation.
Those pictured are more "avante gard or gimmicky or marketing items" than disasters. IMHO.

[Mike_Cirba]

THE Country Club of THE Poconos At Big Ridge.

Spanning hundreds of acres, the drive from the first tee to the 18th green is 12 MILES!!!  

One would think that somewhere across miles of rolling woodland Pennsylvania hill-country that architect Jim Fazio would find at least one good golf hole.

One would also be quite mistaken.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't have any photos, but these are the two biggest architectual failures I've seen around here:

1. On my local pitch and putt, which I love to play with my girl-friend, who is not a very accomplished golfer. They have a par 3 of about 90 yards and it's all over water. I can pitch onto it fine, but there is no way my girl-friend - and other less skilled golfers - can carry that distance. Now, that in itself wouldn't be a problem, but THERE IS NO WAY AROUND! To the left is the previous green, to the right is the next green, so the only way you can play without endangering other players is straight on over the water. My girl-friend simply has to pick up her ball and go to the next hole - truly and totally unplayable.

2. On my fairly short homecourse we have only one par 4, which I cannot reach in regulation. It's an extremely hard hole and the first one to boot. Our club buys some additional land and extends... the hole no one could reach anyway! But it gets even better: the result is that now I have to pitch from maybe 60 yards onto the green instead of from 30. What a waste of land and money - THE HOLE PLAYS EXACTLY THE SAME!

Ulrich

[Chris Cupit]

In Doak's Confidential Course Guide there is a section where he lists the all-time 18 worst holes.  One of them is #5 on the creekside course at Golf Club of GA (Hills).

I won't try and describe the hole (TD does a much better job) but I have cut and pasted what GC of GA says on their own website about this hole.  (I guess they thought this was a favorable description  Enjoy:

"  No question, this can be one of the most challenging holes in the world, but here’s a simple solution: hit your driver or 3-wood to the right of the pine tree. Then hit a wedge or short iron to the edge of the fairway. From there, pretend the hole is now a long par 3 and play a fairway wood or a long iron to the two-level green. Lots of trouble in front and to the left of the green, so bail out to the right of the green or onto the bailout area itself. Go for the green in two shots, however, if your tee shot finds you well into the fairway and within your reach. But come up short and then face another challenging shot—this time through the pine corridor of the drop area."

 

[Glenn Spencer]

BTW Glenn;

We recently played Shaker Run. What exactly IS your problem with #6 on Lakeside? Art makes nice use of a tree to partially defend the green, making a left side approach more desirable. But if you are good at 'high ball', that tree can be cleared entirely. Was the tree your objection, or did I miss the point?

Doug

Doug,

Speaking of disasters. How about that third nine at Shaker? I assume we are talking about the same #6, I  can't remember the names. There is nowhere to hit your tee shot from the back tee. Driver goes into the creek long. 2-iron is blocked out and some 3-woods can be blocked out. You can't tell me that AH took the wind into consideration when building that hole. Our group in a Nike qualifier was about 6 over on the hole and we all hit "good" tee shots. There is just not enough place to drive the ball and hitting iron is not an option, so that is what makes it horrible. The shallow and brick hard green doesn't accept punch shots under the trees very well, either. Could definitely be the worst hole on a good golf course that I have come across, unless you want to give the honors to #3.

[Glenn Spencer]

Andy;

P B Dye does have a 'hidden gem' in the SE Indiana area, which Glenn WILL agree with me. It is Buck Point. Worth a see.

Doug

I didn't mean that to mean anything bad against P.B. Dye, other than to say that his resume does not quite compare with his father. I'm not that familiar with his work, other than Kearney Hill and Mystic Hills in Indiana.

I have it my mind that  Buck Point is a very solid golf course. Can't think of anyone that wouldn't enjoy that course, even if it didn't cost 30 bucks. The back nine is 8 great and fun holes.

[Jordan Wall]

Doug,

Speaking of disasters. How about that third nine at Shaker? I assume we are talking about the same #6, I  can't remember the names. There is nowhere to hit your tee shot from the back tee. Driver goes into the creek long. 2-iron is blocked out and some 3-woods can be blocked out.

Why does this make it a bad hole?
Because it makes you hit a precise tee shot?
I cant seem to reason why a hole would be bad simply based on this.
Sure, its not a perfect hole, but the tee shot obviously makes you think, right?
Sounds like fairway placement is important too, in regards to where your tee shot ends up.
Sounds like a decent golf hole...