Selling out?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike
I could easily be incorrect here but I think BW was in marketing etc with Fazio.....I am not sure he was a designer....but could have been....JB or someone may know more.
Mike

If you look at the back of the Fazio book, there are quite a few pictures of associates not named BW.  He is thanked at the bottom.  

[SL_Solow]

There are several interesting distinctions at work in this thread.  The first is the distinction between an "endorsement " contract and the claim to be a designer.  When Nicklaus endorsed  clubs, or shirts , or shoes, he merely stated he used them, presumably because he thought they were superior in quality.  Same with Jordan, Liz Taylor and the like.  But the architect/pro isn't claiming that that he simply approves or likes the course, he claims he had a lead role in creating it.  This is a substatial difference.

I also agree with those who distinguish the pro who sets up a design staff with a number of associates who do much of the work.  So long as the "name" has some significant role e.g. design philosophy, site visits and modifications, approval of routing and the like, there is nothing wrong with delegating much of the work.  In my business, commercial law, "rainmakers" bring in more than they can do by themselves and are often too expensive to do a lot of the detail work.  Thus younger lawyers do much of the research and drafting.  The grey hairs (yep thats me now) are hired to provide judgment and to set strategy.  Not so different in the GCA world.  The difference is in the execution, does the "senior" really pay attention and does he bring value?

[Doug Ralston]

There is a 'Nicklaus' design course [Aston Oaks] just a few minutes from my home. They tell me Nicklaus NEVER set foot on the premises. Name still sells. OTOH, the course WAS designed by his company, and is quite a nice layout.

I am not in the 'biz' and do not know how much these Pro names actually influence designs in their name. From what I have read here on GCA, I assume C of C&C does indeed have much to do with his namesakes?

I also know that Graham Marsh was onsite quite a bit at 'Old Silo', his 1st USA course. He musta been born on a beach  .
http://www.oldsilo.com/

Doug

[George Pazin]

Haven't read the other responses yet, but I can say that I don't particularly care for the negative implications of the term "selling out". Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to support your family.

I'd certainly place more "blame" - if that's the right word - on the person selling his name than the guy doing the work.

It's a weird world we live in, where celebrity seems to provide some sort of standing or status well beyond the area from which it arises.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I sometimes feel like a bit of a sell out, having worked with the barely involved (sorry, but facts are facts) Larry Nelson, Lanny Wadkins, Steve Elkington, Fred Couples, etc.  On the other hand, they are nice enough guys, and I learn a design perspective I don't know, and also, someone will design the course for them, and I figure I will do a better job for the owner than someone else.

When Jim Colbert puts his name on something, while he couldn't figure out drainage, etc. he stongly dictates what goes where on many, many holes, and has ingrained his philosophy in me to the point that the others reflect it.

I will also say that in most cases, it hasn't been a problem to get co-credit rather than be a pure ghost designer, and even in those cases, I can use those courses on my resume for marketing future work.  I won't sign a sub-contract with a pro anymore, I only sign them with the Owner, but giving him the right to add a player consultant, if he chooses.

[Greg Tallman]

There is a 'Nicklaus' design course [Aston Oaks] just a few minutes from my home. They tell me Nicklaus NEVER set foot on the premises. Name still sells. OTOH, the course WAS designed by his company, and is quite a nice layout.

I am not in the 'biz' and do not know how much these Pro names actually influence designs in their name. From what I have read here on GCA, I assume C of C&C does indeed have much to do with his namesakes?

I also know that Graham Marsh was onsite quite a bit at 'Old Silo', his 1st USA course. He musta been born on a beach  .
http://www.oldsilo.com/

Doug

Doug,

This has been covered a thousand times on this site. "Nicklaus Design" is the name of the company owned by Jack Nicklaus. Courses by "Nicklaus Design" cannot use any other name or likeness apart from the company logo (bear).

Jack's full name goes on his "siganture" designs to which his name and likeness can be used in many ways and under the "Jack Nicklaus Signature Design" credit.

Jack spends far more time on each of his signature designs than some of those credited as lead designer on some of the other "Nicklaus Design" courses, which on occassion turn out fantastic given the freedom of "creativity" which is often required on lesser attractive tracts of land that tend to opt for "Nicklaus Design" vs the more expensive Signature product.

Three tiers of Nicklaus Design...

1. Nicklaus Design
2. Jack Nicklaus Signature Design
3. Jack Nicklaus Golf Cub of... (insert name of country or region with 25 to be designed around the world)

Jeff Brauer - One of the pros noted in your message will be the consultant on a course here in Cabo.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Why should we not revile hypocrits and accept those who produce honest labour?

Is this a pitch for Gordon Brown? Or David Cameron?