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Patrick_Mucci

Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« on: September 05, 2002, 07:53:56 PM »
Individuals champion Merion as the site of a future USOPEN.

Is that realistic in light of today's talent, high tech equipment and ball ?

Isn't Merion going the way of Prestwick in the British Open ?

Aren't they just kidding themselves with respect to the course's ability to challenge the greatest players in the world ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2002, 08:26:35 PM »
In all honesty I think Merion could still challenge the best in the world today but it's getting to be a close call. I'm afraid given normal conditions a player like Woods really would approach approximately 12 greens with some kind of wedge (as Meeks has speculated) but nevertheless Merion has the driving interest and demand to test even him to set himself up off the tee to do that and the greens and green-ends are such that they could really test even his ability to score really well even with those wedges WITHOUT setting up the course "over the top"!

Merion and the USGA would have to take real care not to take the course "over the top"! Merion would need to have the "ideal, ideal maintenance meld" to test the best in the world though! Could they do that? Probably, but it would be a close call.

If Merion was set up like the Hugh Wilson two years ago that would probably do it--that would be a real test. As such I really doubt any pro would shoot 10 under but would Merion in that setup be considered by the best in the world "over the top"?

Again, I think that too would be a close call!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2002, 08:37:39 PM »
The real problem with Prestwick is the way the last 4 holes are so squeezed together.Isn't the problem both have that the logistics don't work.I think both courses would be perfect.If I could pick the venues,they would be in my 5 course rotations for the two opens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2002, 08:41:36 PM »
TEPaul,

Many complain about the narrowed fairways at ANGC.

Wouldn't Merion have to make them "single file only" width ?

Isn't narrowing fairways the bane of this site, or has that too gone the way of waterfalls ??  ;D   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2002, 08:56:26 PM »
Merion is actually planning as part of their ongoing restoration to expand some of their fairways back to something like they used to be.

It's premature of you to ask this topic question. In a few days you can see for yourself and form your own opinion. I'm sure that you will!

A lot will be determined by the setup though as Merion has the capacity to be extremely variable that way as most great courses and architecture do.

I don't know what the setup will be like though, or even the condition because we've had a rough last six weeks here in Philly. The last part of the summer has been really scary on golf courses around here!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2002, 03:44:38 AM »
Q: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?

A: Not if Hootie steps up and brings us a competition ball.

A: Not if the USGA (and R & A for that matter) grows some balls and puts some real limits on technology.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2002, 04:42:27 AM »
Patrick:

Your analogy is apt in that they are both former sites of national open championships although Merion still packs a lot of punch as a test of golf whereas Prestwick, IMO, lacks the same degree of difficulty on its "hard" holes and has even more "short" holes than Merion - especially at the end.

I believe that Merion would hold up as a "test for the best" under championship conditions.  One reason is that several of the longer holes can be extended (#'s 3,5,6,14,17 and 18) and even #12 has room for 10-15 more yards.

Unfortunately, and this is the rub, the tournament would have to be played with small galleries, modest TV and press capabilities and few corporate tents.

The Open Championship outgrew Prestwick's golf course 2 generations ago.  The U.S. Open has outgrown Merion's facilities only since 1981.

The other similarity between the two is that they are both glorious places to enjoy all that is wonderful about golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2002, 05:43:22 AM »
Didn't logistics play a part in Prestwick not remaining an Open venue? And isn't that why Merion was dropped in the 80's? I don't believe either is obsolete, both hosting the major championships of the British Am (2001) and US Ams (2005).

The complaints regarding ANGC revolve around the courses original design intent and historical set up being ignored. Any course that host the US Open accepts 'single file' set up -- that was the case with Merion and the past and with all other US Open sites.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2002, 05:55:25 AM »
I have played Merion 3 times this summer and not being a Merion regular or knowing the intracacies of the place as some of you, I would say it could host whatever it likes.  And a couple of tour pros I have spoken with agree.  While it is true that someone such as Tiger might hit wedge into many greens, he might also have to hit wedge back into many fairways if he gets the least bit greedy off of the tee.
Personally, I would enjoy watching the best players play at such a venue even if one does end up 20 under.  I think the frustration level for many of the tour players is much lower than we think and such a place could bring it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2002, 06:58:22 AM »
My first US Open was in 1981 at Merion when the driving range was 2 miles down the road at The West, and there was a small souvenier tent. I attended the US Open at Bethpage this summer, and the scale of the tournament in terms of people, tents and logistics has outgrown the space of Merion and its surrounding infrastructure. It will be interesting to see the first few medal rounds of the US Amateur at Merion, as they hit the ball farther than most of the Pros. My guess/hope is that the course will hold up. I believe that Merion has added length to 2, 3, 6, 12 and 18, but it has not been recorded on the scorecard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2002, 07:15:30 AM »
I think Prestwick would hold up quite well in an Open. Yes it's short, but its short holes were designed to be very hard short holes. I think nos. 15 and 16 are two of the best short par 4's in the world. Both have vicious greens that slope severely away from the line of play. Tee balls have to hit to precise spots. No. 17 is a great hole, by any measure.

The intractable problem, as pointed out, is logistics. There is literally no room around the course, not even for a practice range.

Bob    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2002, 07:47:07 PM »
B:

You are correct - there is no room.  The last 5 holes leave no room to put a crowd or even to walk more than single file. :(

I think that Prestwick is still a very good track for the British Amateur, since it is match play.   :)

But, unfortunately, it isn't up for an Open anymore. :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tim Weiman

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2002, 08:32:20 PM »
BCrosby:

I share your enthusiasm for #15 ("Narrows") at Prestwick and don't recall ever seeing anything quite like it. We could use more such holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2002, 04:31:22 AM »
That's very interesting about Prestwick and some very short very good holes.

The fact that this thread seems to be an attempted comparision between Prestwick and Merion, it should be said how good some of Merion's short holes are--the so-called mid-round "short stretch".

And it's also interesting that #15 Prestwick is a short hole with a green that runs away from the player making the hole obviously even more intense to play!

Did you know that the very interesting little #8 at Merion originally had a green that ran well away from the player?

It doesn't any longer--it now has a green that very much filters back to front although it's very shallow with and enormous and deep fronting bunker to carry.

I know it would never happen but what would you say if the original runaway green was restored at #8 Merion? Of course doing that would be restoring the green to something even Wilson and Flynn must have thought too much because it was them that redid the green to what it is today!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2002, 12:22:10 PM »
Both Prestwick and Merion (and Rye and Cypress Point and Westward Ho! and NGLA and Dornoch and Pacific Dunes, and etc. and etc.) could hold national Opens, from a golfing point of view.  Winners over any of those (and many other) venues would be worthy champions, and the architecutre of those venues would hold up to the scrtuiny of the best golfers in the world.

However, national Opens are now all about money, and pomp and circumstance.  So, for the near term, we're doomed to a steady diet of places where lots of fancy tents can be erected and the great and good can be wined and dined.

Fortunately, many of those places also have decent tests of golf nearby........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2002, 07:47:14 PM »
Rich:

What's going on with you? Is it the Scottish air? This is now three intelligent things you've said in the last week or so! I'm now out to about 2005 before saying another nice thing about you! But maybe I should just chuck that idea--you really are beginning to make a modicum of architectural sense!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2002, 12:56:35 AM »
Tom

I've been saying the same things ever since I found my way onto GCA.  The post above is pretty much a repeat of a few I wrote 2 years ago on the same general topic.  I am very pleased to see how much your reading and critical thinking skills have improved recently.  Now it is time to work on your memory. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2002, 04:03:55 AM »
Rich:

Now it's my reading and comprehension skills Huh? You're sounding more and more like Pat every day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2002, 04:26:19 AM »
Apologies, your Doyenness

I just wish I could play golf like Pat Mucci, or yourself, for that matter!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is Merion the modern day Prestwick ?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2002, 03:00:40 PM »
You're just about half right this time, Young Rich!

You might be right to wish you could play like Pat, but you'd  be wrong to wish you could play like me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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