[Mike Hendren]

To my surprise, I've played 9 of the top 20 modern American courses as rated by Golfweek.  With the exception of Sand Hills, I'd rather play any of the Top 50 "classics" than anything else on the modern list.  

THAT'S WRONG!

I heard my friend John Kavanaugh state that the best golf courses in the country are being built today.  Undoubtedly Mike Young agrees.   What are the merits of modern golf course architecture that I am overlooking or wrongly dismissing?

Mike

[Rich Goodale]

Time, Michael......

Only GCA pedophiles fall in love with courses that are less than 25 years old......

[Adam Clayman]

Michael, Apparently you are missing alot. Considering our round where you had trouble remembering even the slightest details on your drive home.

Repeated play is possibly the only cure for your affliction.

I suspect JK's comment took among other factors, engineering, into account.

[Gary Slatter]

I don't think you are overlooking anything, we all have preferences and yours are that you prefer to play the old Classics vs. the new "classics".  

With a very few exceptions (Kiawah, Kingsbarns), I am in 99% agreement.

My love affair for the classics extends far past golf.  However, I am always open to be surprised.

[Phil_the_Author]

As a person who enjoys tweaking Mike about his use of the phrase "Dead Guys" whenever I can, I must defend him on this one.

It isn't that he doesn't respect and admire the works of the greats from the Golden Age, rather he takes offense, as well he should, with the misconception that architects today can or are not designing courses that, at least in some cases, can challenge the grandeur of most of the greats from the past.

He is not denigrating the "Dead Guys" as trying to lift up to a proper height the "Living Guys."

[Mike Hendren]

Michael, Apparently you are missing alot. Considering our round where you had trouble remembering even the slightest details on your drive home.

Adam,  it remains a mystery to me that I can remember fewer details from your home course than any course I've played in the past five years.  More confounding is the fact that I believe it is among the top twenty-five courses built in this country in the past fifty years.  

Did you cast a spell?

Mike

[Chris_Clouser]

Mike,

I think John is right in many respects.  Except for the upper echelon of courses that are timeless, like a Merion or Pine Valley, I think the modern courses are as good as if not better.  

In Indiana alone, if you look at the best courses in the state some twenty years ago several of those courses are being replaced in the rankings by many better courses.  Places like the Trophy Club, Purgatory, The Fort, Rock Hollow, Blackthorn, Sultan's Run and Belterra are all better than the old guard with the exception of the elite courses like a Crooked Stick.  The construction techniques, maintenance practices, imagination and understanding of solid strategy by people like Doak, Coore/Crenshaw, Liddy, Forse, DeVries and others have vastly improved over those of the ODGs.  With all of the modern equipment and technology available it would be surprising if they didn't produce a better product.  

I'm for memorializing the ODGs, heck I even wrote a book about one, but to put them on a pedestal and say that those following them cannot get to an equal stature is wrong.  I am just amazed that many of the supposed sacred cows of golf architecture have not started to fall down the rankings and the modern courses have not started to dominate the top 100 lists to this point.  Of all the ODG courses I have played, I can count on one hand the number that are superior to the modern designs, and perhaps another handful that are equal to the ones mentioned above.  

You know the more I listen to John K. the more I wonder if he isn't onto something.  Of course then again, I did get hit on the head yesterday.  

[A.G._Crockett]

Of course, it really isn't an either/or matter between the old and the new!

Appreciating the classics in GCA while still being excited to see the best of the new stuff isn't any different than appreciating music, art, or literature.  I can love Pat Conroy's work as much as I do that of Will Shakespeare.

When Tommy N., who loves the classics as much as anyone alive, makes a pilgrimmage to the East Coast to see Mike Young's new masterpiece, Long Shadow, balance is evident and learning continues.  That he discovered Waffle House and a certain waitress along the way is a beautiful side benefit!

[Mike Sweeney]

I really see this as a reflection way past golf courses. I much prefer the older architecture of buildings and baseball stadiums for example. I am not really a car guy, but guess which one I would choose for a one time drive to The Old Course:

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike ,
That's only because you wouldn't fit in this

[A.G._Crockett]

I really see this as a reflection way past golf courses. I much prefer the older architecture of buildings and baseball stadiums for example. I am not really a car guy, but guess which one I would choose for a one time drive to The Old Course:

Looking at the classics in the first picture, it is critical to remember that the "bad" cars of that era didn't survive.  It becomes tempting to think of ALL cars from that era (or ALL music from your HS/college days) as being great, when the reality is that we are seeing only the great stuff that stood the test of time.  Will the car in the lower picture pass that test?  That remains to be seen.

GCA is no different; we see the "greatest hits" of the old dead guys.  Their misses are lost to time.  What from today will stand the test of time and be a classic in a few decades, and why?  THOSE questions are what make this website go!

[Russ Miller]

With all of the modern equipment and technology available it would be surprising if they didn't produce a better product.  

I agree that at least as far as equipment and technology modern architects probably have an easier time of it and therefore might be expected to produce an equal or better product; however, I believe there are environmental, legal, availability of land, developer issues that modern architects have to deal with that those in the past did not to quite the same extent.

Also, I think part of the allure of older courses is their history and that probably adds to good vibes one gets while playing there.  To take an example from baseball, Camden Yards is a terrific ballpark, but there just isn't enough history there to give one the same feeling as watching a game at Fenway or Wrigley, even if Camden has more creature comforts.

Chris Clouser - I lived in Lafayette, IN for a year after law school and played Trophy Club several times and loved it.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

1960 was one hell of a year...I only missed 10 days.  I just think you like some courses more than others and that is fine.  I love almost every RTJ course I have played but then again he is dead too.

Since you are the listmeister I question if I would be giddy to go play http://www.wbyc.com/index.html which correlates to another course I will soon see.

[Mike_Young]

Mike H,
Whenever I travel to play I usually opt for the older stuff....I appreciate it.....and respect it....but I don't feel it is as much the architect as the club longevity and the "patina" of the growth over the years.....Courses today are built better just like cars and more and more are coming back to a style that mimics many of the older dead guy courses.....
Many on here think I am against the old dead guys...not at all....I am against the BS that surrounds the old dead guys.....
At the end of the day I just want to play golf...as they say about several things...." the worst was wonderful".....
Mike

[Mike Sweeney]

What from today will stand the test of time and be a classic in a few decades, and why?  THOSE questions are what make this website go!

Sand Hills is past that question, IMO. I have to say that Friars Head, Colorado Golf Club and Calusa Pines would be my early favorites, and I have not seen the later two. The reasons are mainly due to the owners and/or members that play the courses.

I might put Dallas National on that list, but don't talk to enough people who have played it. I hope that Hidden Creek can support it current economic model to keep houses away. I don't care what Cirba say about the 15th hole, keep the course as is.  

[John Kavanaugh]

From what I understand about Dallas National is that the one thing it has in common with the classics is that it is in a bad neighborhood.  I think it makes a lot of guys on this board feel good when they drive through poverty to play golf.  I always hear an anti-McMansion bias.

[Mike Hendren]

It is entirely possible that classic courses accomodate my inability to get the ball airborne a little bit better than most moderns, though I really enjoyed scooting the ball along Ballyneal last year.

Mike

[Tommy_Naccarato]

AG,
I'll never forget the very first time I went to Lost Wages, (Las Vegas) I was about 15 or 16, and my Mom and Dad picked the newest of Las Vegas hot spots--the MGM Grand Hotel, which is now Bally's.

While going up to our room for the very first time, there was framed images on the walls of hallways of all of the MGM 'contract' stars and just before our room was this portrait of Vivian Leigh. It looked as if it had been snapped for publicity for Gone With The Wind as she was dressed in the wardrobe from that fabled movie of the South.  I was mesmerized how beautiful she really was. It just captured me every time I entered and exited our room.



But there are some women in Hollywood that are worthy of being on the walls of the MGM to capture the imagination of youthful boys coming into their 'exuberant' years. You see, there are women, beautiful women, not even as beautiful women, but classic in their own right that do deserve to grow into the league of a Vivian Leigh. A Rita Haworth for example;



They grow in grace and dignity even when they age. Even the ones that are in their prime right now. They just seem to exude a beauty that goes beyond skin deep. The first that comes to my mind is Cathrine Deneuve.



Then there's the Bollywood screen legend, Aishwarya Rai, whose been called one of the most beautiful women in the world:



While it's up to the Mike Young's of the world--the filmakers and golf course creators--to carry on that tradition of exposing the talent, he should never forget his inspiration of what got him there--the quality; the beauty of what inspired him. Something had to inspire him, even if it was an old or dead movie star or an old or dead golf course architect.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I also forgot to add that there are golf course designers that have all of the tools and gifts of great land, unlimited budgets that can work hassle free, but can only come up with this:

[John Kavanaugh]

Most of us only play the greats once and I can assure you that where you would get the most bang for the buck would not be on a classic.

[PThomas]

I guess Ms. Hilton would be the perfect example of T Doak's "dumb blonde" award:  damn good looking but not a lot behind those looks

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike H:

A guy's gotta start somewhere, and the beginning is as good a place as any to start, and probably better than most. So by all means, feel free to use your limited playing time to play first the courses that came first.

Mike Y:

You're right: there's no necessary relationship between quality and historical precedence. It simply doesn't work that way; no general rules apply.  

One could argue, for example, that jazz was never better than when it was played by its first towering genius, Louis Armstrong. On the other hand, one could argue instead that the be-bop of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie was technically and harmonically more complex and interesting than Armstrong's music. But would anyone want to claim, AS A FACT, that Gillespie was "better" than Armstrong, or that Armstrong was "better" than Gillespie?

Those discussions always lead to the dead-end of personal taste.

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

Re Hollywood Starlets: Back in the day, you had to do something to be a celeb, like make an actual movie or something.  I guess PH has done a TV show, but Jerry Hall, Nicole Richey, PH, etc. all are famous for being famous, for the most part thanks to the PR machines.  For that matter, even you have been described as an "internet celebrity" and I doubt several thousand postings would have qualified as such in Hollywoods golden age either!

As to the classics - I seriously doubt, if we survey holes before and after 1960, that there are more holes that don't allow the runup game in EITHER era.  As always, I could be wrong, but the tendency is to compare the moderns we see on TV for tourneys to the classics.

I agree with Mike - No one says the best of the old guys isn't great.  However, we should also say its been improved by the supers over the years, the history, the growth of trees, overall maturity, and overall exclusiveness.  Its a treat to play even before you walk in the gate, and that gets confused with the actual gca.  

For that matter, the old guys are getting certain things of genius attributed to them that just didn't exist to any greater degree than it does today.

As an example, I have said it before, but I have examined hundreds of Ross plans and field notes. None said anything about swales in front of the green for visual deception. Nearly all said something about swales in front of the green to build up the back for a front to back slope, small backing mounds, and just to get fill from the nearest spot.  Someone notices that there might be some visual deception (although I have never felt that at the most cited example - No 2 Course hole 15) and all of a sudden, its a Ross "trademark" that never really existed.

Now, there is a certain genius to the simple and practical design, and many prefer that to other, more "concocted" schemes, all of which I understand completely.  Less can be more.  But, overall, the strategies aren't that much different, and the biggest difference is that succeeding gcas owners and supers have taken out much of the superfluous bunkering that was so nice in the name of cost and speed of play.


.....Now, that is the history of American GCA in a nutshell!

[Peter Pallotta]

Shivas
is that the BMW 2002 that I'm looking at?
For my tastes, amongst the finest looking cars ever.
Good on ya!
Peter

[Ron Kern]

One could argue, for example, that jazz was never better than when it was played by its first towering genius, Louis Armstrong. On the other hand, one could argue instead that the be-bop of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie was technically and harmonically more complex and interesting than Armstrong's music. But would anyone want to claim, AS A FACT, that Gillespie was "better" than Armstrong, or that Armstrong was "better" than Gillespie?

Love the jazz comparison - it's spot on...  

OT - Speaking of jazz, if anybody is interested you can check out my labor of love - Bop City at

http://bopcity.blogspot.com

It is an internet radio station.  One can listen for free - just access the broadcast on Live365 from the blog.  All of the cuts are taken from my LP record collection.  I maintain an eighteen hour playlist and add new cuts every week.  I play quite a bit of out of print and rare stuff.

Clisk here if you want to see what has been playing

Thanks,

Ron

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