[Mike Hendren]

Sorry to lob a grenade in the room and close the door behind me but I'm curious, yet not up for a long post.  I've been thinking about this for a couple of months now.  So....

Am I flat out wrong if I opine that:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?

I tend to be a contrarian, which is another way of admitting I could be wrong.  

Mike

[tlavin]

Sorry to lob a grenade in the room and close the door behind me but I'm curious, yet not up for a long post.  I've been thinking about this for a couple of months now.  So....

Am I flat out wrong if I opine that:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?

I tend to be a contrarian, which is another way of admitting I could be wrong.  

Mike

1.  It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but they're each great.
2.  Both world class, IMHO.
3.  Haven't played Cuscowilla, but the ocean might sway that vote in and of itself.
4.  Nothing borderline about it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Of course opinions can really only be flat out wrong if one has verified science going against him.  So just don't say water isn't H2O or the like.  

I do disagree, only slightly though:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
Perhaps.  They're both pretty damn great.

2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
Depends on what you mean by "world class" and how far you extend that, or limit it.  If it's limited to top 20 courses in the world, then yes, each falls short.  But extend it to 100 or 200, and each makes it.

3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
Hmmm... Cuscowilla is pretty damn great also.  I can't say BT is "easily" superior.  Slightly superior I can live with.

4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?
Meaning top 45 or so?  That seems to undersell it to me.  I think it's better than that.  But you're not all that far off.

[Tim Pitner]

Am I flat out wrong if I opine that:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?

Yes, you are (IMHO, of course).

1.  No.  Bandon Trails is a great course and I enjoyed it immensely.  It's probably more challenging than Pacific Dunes, especially with regard to length.  But, I see more average (in context) holes at BT than at PD.  At PD, I would say #1 and #12 qualify as just okay; the remainder of the holes are better than that.  At BT, I would categorize 7, 9, 10 and 11 as less than stellar.  

2.  As Tom H said, it depends on what you mean by "world class."  It's difficult for me to believe that Pacific Dunes isn't world class.  If you were to select a handful courses on which to play, and left aside considerations such as history and club atmosphere, it seems to me that Pacific Dunes would appear on many people's list.  It's a better course than many of the links classics that people take pilgrimages to the UK and Ireland to play.  

3.  Don't know--haven't played Cuscowilla.  It wouldn't surprise me; I have a very high opinion of Bandon Trails.  

4.  I don't have a great feel for what's a "Top 50 Modern," but I'll say that I prefer Bandon Dunes to the Ocean Course at Kiawah and I'm guessing that the latter would comfortably make most people's list of top 50.  My sense is that Bandon Dunes may have been initially overrated, but now a recent backlash has caused it to be underrated.  

[Mike Hendren]

I weighed the following factors when questioning whether Bandon Dunes is overrated:

1.  The construction of the buildings on the inside corner of a right-hand dogleg first hole is inexcusable, though not the architect's fault.

2.  The approaches to one and two are both uphill in the same direction with a style of bunkering that is thereafter abandoned.

3.  There are six par fours that bend right - none left.  Of those six, four are in an extremely narrow range from 363 to 359 yards on the card (they do nicely box the compass, thereby effectively playing at various distances due to wind).

4.  The par fives are generally pedestrian, vary by only 15 yards and follow the tired formula of finishing both nines.

5.  The 4th and 12th holes, providing the sea as a dramatic backdrop, require identical contiguous approaches.  

6.  The 17th is a solid hole, but wholly inconsistent with the previous 16.  I'm reminded of the 9th or 18th at Whistling Straits - with the architect needing to stimulate the golfer as Mother Nature will no longer do so.  

DISCLOSURE:  I only played this course once and was too fatigued to golf my ball with any competence whatsoever.

Thoughts?

Mike

[Tim Pitner]

Michael,

Don't Nos. 5 and 11 essentially bend left?  I agree with a lot of your criticisms.  In particular, I agree that the par 5s are pretty mediocre (although I like #18 better than most); #17 is a bit of an oddball; and it seems like the routing could have been better.  Still, I think the sum of the parts is pretty darned good.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael:

Interesting critiques.  As a fan of the course, I'd just counter as follows:

1.  The construction of the buildings on the inside corner of a right-hand dogleg first hole is inexcusable, though not the architect's fault.
The buildings are meaningless to me - I find #1 to be a great golf hole with or without them, and it's not like they're ugly or obtrusive.  Fun tee shot requiring a lot more thought than most openers, awesome approach, great green.  What's not to like?

2.  The approaches to one and two are both uphill in the same direction with a style of bunkering that is thereafter abandoned.
So two holes going in the same direction and both uphill are a bad thing?  If so that's gonna be a common critique to a lot of golf courses... and not sure what you mean by style of bunkering... heck none of the rest of the course would seem to allow bunkers carved into hillsides as 1 and 2 are... but wouldn't the greenside bunkers on 17 be kinda this "style"?  In any case as far as bad things about golf courses go this is something I can surely live with.

3.  There are six par fours that bend right - none left.  Of those six, four are in an extremely narrow range from 363 to 359 yards on the card (they do nicely box the compass, thereby effectively playing at various distances due to wind).
never noticed that... and given the wind has such very different effects, they play effectively so different that the similar yardage sure doesn't bother me

4.  The par fives are generally pedestrian, vary by only 15 yards and follow the tired formula of finishing both nines.
good point, although I'd say #3 isn't exactly pedestrian - that's a darn good hole.  But the par fives are the weakness of the course.

5.  The 4th and 12th holes, providing the sea as a dramatic backdrop, require identical contiguous approaches.
Hard top see these as indentical approaches given one's a par 4 and one's a par 3... but they each do go toward the ocean.. that's supposed to be a bad thing?  I find each shot pretty darn inspiring.

6.  The 17th is a solid hole, but wholly inconsistent with the previous 16.  I'm reminded of the 9th or 18th at Whistling Straits - with the architect needing to stimulate the golfer as Mother Nature will no longer do so.  
Kidd took what the land allowed on 17.  And I don't find it inconsistent with the other 17... it just has more death to the right.  Heck Mother Nature created the barranca to the right cutting in a bit with a landform behind it... Kidd sure didn't... Methinks you're just in a bad mood today.    


All in all interesting critiques... but none disqualify the course from greatness, as I see things.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

I can only really comment on #2.  If PD isn't world class, then I'm not really sure what is?  While I haven't played them, I would suspect its not in the class of a Cypress or a Pine Valley, but then again, who is?

I believe there are 7000 courses in the US?  It may be more than that, but I'll error on the conservative side. % wise that still puts PD in the 99.7 Percentile.  If thats not a world class level, then your standards are "off the charts" high.

[Mike Hendren]

I used the term "world class" because a playing partner whose opinion I respect used those words.  I suspect PD is indeed world class, I just can't quite get there.

As for Bandon Dunes, it is very good indeed but 'll stick to my guns there.  I've played the following Golfweek top 50 modern that rank below Bandon Dunes:  The Honors, Bandon Trails, TPC Sawgrass, Spyglass, Desert Forest, Wildhorse, WW - Pine Barrens, Cuscowilla, Ballyneal, The Rim and Victoria National.  I'd prefer a round at each of those, except perhaps The Rim, to another crack at Bandon Dunes.  It just did not float my boat.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

OK, so the problem here is the Golfweek raters have missed the boat, once again. I can certainly live with that.

 

Interesting though.. in the end we are just splitting hairs, because all of those courses could certainly be called "great" as well.  If Bandon Dunes didn't float your boat as much as the ones you listed, then that's cool - it's certainly no denigration of Bandon Dunes.

Good lord, Rich Goodale's "star system" in the end probably is the best way to classify courses... within each star it really is going to come down to personal preference.  You didn't dig Bandon Dunes, I did.  Gulp.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike

Your preference is your preference and everyone else is wrong!  Good on ya for not being part of the dangerous herd mentality.

WHAT?

The herd in here loves to denigrate Bandon Dunes.  If anything my friend Michael is oddly following the herd when he typically does anything but.

TH

[Joe Bentham]

DISCLOSURE:  I only played this course once and was too fatigued to golf my ball with any competence whatsoever.

Thoughts?

Mike

I think for only playing it once you seem to remember a lot.  Two thoughts on that; either you spent to much time critiquing the course to enjoy it, or your using stock criticisms.  Either way to think that you've got the pulse of the course after seeing it once is ridiculous.  But alas the so called Bandon experts who've played the courses a whopping 5 times  are equally ridiculous.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Hi Joe:

Great to hear from you again!

Hey, I've played Bandon 5 times.  So I gather I'm ridiculous.

But my opinions are rather opposite from my friend Mike Hendren, who's played it once.

Isn't it pretty tough for both of us to be ridiculous?

BTW, you'll hopefully note that neither of us claimed to be any experts on the course, we're just giving our opinions.

TH

[rjsimper]

But alas the so called Bandon experts who've played the courses a whopping 5 times  are equally ridiculous.  

I presume you are kidding.

If for some unfathomable reason you are not, please explain how the opinion of someone who has played the course 5 times is "equally ridiculous" to the opinion of the person who has played it once.

[Eric Johnson]

But alas the so called Bandon experts who've played the courses a whopping 5 times  are equally ridiculous.  

I presume you are kidding.

If for some unfathomable reason you are not, please explain how the opinion of someone who has played the course 5 times is "equally ridiculous" to the opinion of the person who has played it once.

(1r)x=5r, find x

[Mike Hendren]

Relax Joe - it's all good, as you youngsters like to say.  Recall that my original premise suggested I might be wrong and I could have foregone the disclaimer to puff up my opinion.  

I have to admit that I am unabashedly in love with golf courses - not so with the game these days.  Accordingly, I try to pay close attention.  Wasn't aware that there were stock criticisms of Bandon Dunes.  Perhaps what you call stock criticism is actually consensus.

My gut tells me that Bandon Dunes is ordinary at times.  That doesn't mean it's not a very good golf course.

Kindest regards,

Mike

 

[Tim Pitner]

With due respect, Michael, your critiques seem to come from someone who hasn't played the course much and is looking at a routing map or a scorecard.  Maybe I'm just not that observant, but I never noticed that most of the par 4s went to the right or that an abundance of them have similar yardages.  I don't find that the par 4s at BD play repetitively in any way.  

I'm not holding myself out as an expert, but I have played the course several times (more than 5 so I'm not ridiculous).  Given the strong and shifting winds at Bandon, playing the course in different conditions is essential before evaluating it.  

[rjsimper]

I think that Mike's criticisms are founded in some cases.

It's true that the bunkering style changes after the first (or first two) holes.  More of an observation than a criticism at face value...but all will draw their own conclusions.

I, too, noticed that many of the holes play as dogleg rights.  To be fair, the 5th and 11th, as was pointed out earlier, play right to left.

I've always felt that the whole bunker-created dogleg right tee shot was a bit omnipresent (3, 8, 10, 14).

The buildings I have no problem with - it promotes the "village" feel of the place and I like having that on BD - no, it wouldnt be appropriate on the other courses, but with BD as the social center of the resort, I like playing away from and back to the resort.  

I have played BD 7 times, so perhaps by Joe's fuzzy math this makes my opinion here more ridiculous than Mr. Hendren's...

In my opinion it is the lesser of the three courses at the resort, and is still deserving of top 50 modern status, though there are courses below it that I believe are better, and there are courses above it that I believe are worse.

[JohnV]

Michael, regarding your comment on holes 1 & 2 at Bandon, would you feel better playing #2 from a tee that was above the original #1 green?  That is where the tees were first built and still were there the last time I was there.  After the course was almost finished but before it opened, the new tees were built down in the flats.  I've played from up there a couple of times and it is a very different hole from there.

I agree with you on the par 5s with the exception that I think 13 is wonderful with a wild green.

I'd add #7 to par 4s that bend slightly left, especially if you hit it the obvious direction rather than the blind one to the left.

[Mike Hendren]

The 11th is referenced as a dogleg left.  Perhaps.  I'll say this, it is my favorite hole on the golf course because line off the tee is more important than distance and the small greenside bunker dictates play on the entire hole:



I kept thinking that if the fairway bunkers were moved to the right 10-15 yards and the higher ground left of them was also maintained as fairway, it would be one heck of a bottle hole.

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bogie, I think Bandon Trails is as you see it but Pacific Dunes is world class. I do agree with you on Bandon Dunes with maybe putting a bit higher than you. I struggle with the comparison to Cuscowilla for both are very good but so different.

[Tim Pitner]

Michael,

No. 11 is also my favorite hole at BD--with the gorse, pot bunkers and its simplicity, it seems very Scottish to me (although I've never been to Scotland).  

I wonder to what extent people's preferences for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails over Bandon Dunes can be attributed to aesthetics, specifically the wilder-looking bunkers of PD and BT compared to the pot bunkers of BD.  I'm guessing it's fairly significant.  Personally, I'm thankful for the diversity.  

[Dan Smoot]

I weighed the following factors when questioning whether Bandon Dunes is overrated:

1.  The construction of the buildings on the inside corner of a right-hand dogleg first hole is inexcusable, though not the architect's fault.

Thoughts?

Mike

What do you think about the tee shot on the 17th and the 18th at TOC?  For a starting hole it doesn't really bother me.  It certainly isn't the direction I want to go when everyone is watching.  It leads to a very good site for the 1st green.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike/bogie aka double bogie I like your notes on Bandon Dunes as well. I have always talked of drainage and number 13, 16 and 17. It is a very good course and worthy of the resort but not top 20 modern. Huck the GD rankings have become indefenseable therefore firing a bullit at GW does not change that. lol GD does understand rater conference locations for after hours fun but forces some very suspect golf at them during the day. Maybe a week at Bandon would change that. GW has been there twice.

[Mike Hendren]

What do you think about the tee shot on the 17th and the 18th at TOC?  

By the time one reaches the tee at The Road Hole, he has a pretty good idea of where his tee shots are going.  As for 18, it's the widest fairway I've ever played.

Lying three on the first tee at Bandon Dunes (not to mention being out $1.25 for a new Pinnacle and wondering if your liability insurance policy is paid up) is a poor welcome to the adventurous soul who has traveled all the way to the remote Oregon coast.  IT'S INEXCUSABLE.

Mike

(Editorial:  I'm questioning why I've given Pebble Beach a pass on this issue.)

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