Question for our resident architects . . .

[Ted Kramer]

Architects,

What is your opinion of TPC Sawgrass?
Does it amaze you as an architectural feat?
Does it impress you?
Do you think it is good for the game of golf?
What do you like about it?
What do you dislike about it?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

-Ted

[Ian Andrew]

What is your opinion of TPC Sawgrass?
I like the course, more than I expected to. There are lots of great holes and great ideas to be learned from.
Does it amaze you as an architectural feat?
It's a really good course on a terrible site, if that doesn't impress you, I don't know what could.
Does it impress you?
There is an excellent balance of options, lots of demands to work the ball both ways, psychological tricks, examples of intimidation, ideas that harken back to the origions and even completely original concepts. That's impressive when you think about it. You don't have to like it to respect what he accomplished all the same.
Do you think it is good for the game of golf?
No - but the blame is on other architects for copying things they shouldn't - this is not Pete's fault. For me personally, I find this is the jumping off point for Pete's work - I'm not near as interested in anything that followed. Although somebody will point out what I'm overlooking - and its certainly not Whistling Straights.
What do you like about it?
It very quietly rewards working the ball almost as well as Riviera. I always admired Pete for the strategies, in fact he has few peers in the business today still, its the shaping that I find less appealing.
What do you dislike about it?
What it brought us - the excessive use of water as a hazard. Also, the course looks painfully dated because of the style.

That said, I enjoyed playing there and would again givin the chance - it was a lot of fun - and isn't that the measuring stick of great golf.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Indirectly, a response is posted at my blog this week:
www.mingaygolf.blogspot.com

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ted,

What is your opinion of TPC Sawgrass?

I like it, I remember a lot of it after several years and I enjoyed playing it three times.

Does it amaze you as an architectural feat?

Not particularly. I was amazed in that is was the first time I saw catch basins to that degree in the fairways.  I have heard Pete talk about the drainage system, but didn't think it was as much a marvel as he did.  I have heard they dug the moat, pulled up the muck, etc.  That was a pretty good feat, but again, it had been done before and since.

Does it impress you?

Yes, I think it does.  I learned a lot, much of it described in this post.  It was one of those courses that was truly different when I played it, and for that alone, it is good.

Do you think it is good for the game of golf?

No one course is either good or bad for golf. On par, I would say its good for golf and gca because it got a lot of people talking.

What do you like about it?

I loved the angled fw's on most holes, the island green, the short 12th hole and the par 5 11th the most.  I also learned there that the less elevation change you have (say on a bunker bank or between tees) that you can enhance it with different grasses and steeper slopes, and its just as distinct as a larger elevation change.

What do you dislike about it?

That the waste areas didn't work, since stuff grows too well in Florida to keep sandy areas sandy, and that the green went through several rebuilds to satisfy the Tour Pros in regards to "fairness."

That said, I also noted that while the approaches looked like they might allow the running game, the contours in those areas really didn't in many cases.

I also disliked Rocco Mediate cutting in front of us on the first tee because he was a "tour pro" and we weren't!

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

You're welcome!

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

Long Cove was the next course Pete built after the TPC at Sawgrass, and I believe it's one of his best courses because it was really a reaction to the TPC, a conscious decision to build an interesting course that was more playable for members.  After Long Cove, though, Pete got into a run of severe sites (The Honors Course, Austin CC) and clients who wanted major championships (PGA West) and his TPC tricks took center stage again.

Ted:

I'm a moderate fan of the course; I don't think it's one of Pete's best courses overall, but it's pretty amazing considering they couldn't get a piece of equipment onto the property for a month without it getting stuck in the muck.  I'm not sure where Jeff B. had seen a course where the elevation in the ponds is 1 foot below sea level so they could save the trees on the property, but I sure hadn't seen anything like it.

I always thought some of the holes were repetitive ... waste bunker left off the tee and right of the approach, then right off the tee and left of the approach, then left and left, and then you're about out of ideas.

Was it good for golf?  Yes, it attracted a lot of attention to golf and golf architecture.  But I don't think it was good for golf architecture, because so many other architects copied that style and because it focused architects on the Tour player and not the member.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jeff and Tom,
Would you describe the drainage system?

Ted,
After one play I liked the course, thought it was excellent.
I was impressed with the style of shaping - it was very pronounced, even more so than Kiawah - which I had played the day before.

A few holes were a little bland - and it was a little repetitive for me also.

My overall assesment:
I don't plan on returning, poor value when coupled with the hotel.


As for the clubhouse - it does not look original - but like every new home in Houston.  A little big if you ask me also.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

The drainage system on the first fw consisted of basins almost as perfectly spaced as the sprinkler heads - 4 sections of 20 foot PVC pipes and a basin, 4 sections and a basin.  It allowed enough fw grading that the ball wasn't visible to me in the fw from the adjacent cart path, which was a shock to me.

I wasn't really aware that the ponds were below sea level, but I had heard Pete describe the water moving to ponds and going through some kind of pump system over the levee.  I had seen that done by K and N and have done it since, always as a last resort, of course, so it is a good bit of engineering.  I believe from Pete's description that a lot of it is also flooded section pipe, which is also fairly typical for flat ground courses, like those you see in Houston.

I find myself wondering why you describe value, the hotel and the new (I presume, maybe you are speaking of the old one) clubhouse in your assessment!  The question was directed at architects, not tourists on a budget!  

BTW, ditto on the repetitive angled holes.  They were a revelation to me when I saw them, so I guess I give them a pass.  Now, when I see those on OTHER Pete courses, I get a little more critical, but I guess a good idea is a good idea, no?

OT Question - when he angles greens and fw, would we call those a Pete-dan?  How about when Rees does it, is it a Reesdan?

[Dan Herrmann]

Was it good for golf?  Yes, it attracted a lot of attention to golf and golf architecture.  But I don't think it was good for golf architecture, because so many other architects copied that style and because it focused architects on the Tour player and not the member.

I think we have a new candidate for Post of the Year

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually, I am wracking my brain to figure out who exactly has copied the Dye style.  His most famous proteges, Doak and Coore use an entirely different style as their base.

Faz, JN, AP, Brauer, you name it, I can't think of anyone who used waste bunkers in play like him (Faz and JN seem to place lots of them in front of tees to reduce turf)  Maybe Mike Strantz took off from there, eh?

As to focusing on the Tour pro, JN and AP inclined that way. Faz and Jay Morrish probably took off the other direction, deciding to be the playablility signature architects.

Not too many other gca out there building tournament tough courses since Dye came along.  And if they do, its because the owners are focused on the Tour, not specifically on TPC, although I do agree it has some influence.

But really, who out there is really copying even any feature of the Dye style. Maybe I have brain lock today. I will check in after my field visit.

[Forrest Richardson]

It is a joy in many respects. Firstly, it broke new ground in the category of manufactured courses. Beyond that, it plays (toys) with golfers in much the way a stripper teases his/her audience. It beckons, tempts and provides loads of visual interest.

[Forrest Richardson]

It is a joy in many respects. Firstly, it broke new ground in the category of manufactured courses. Beyond that, it plays (toys) with golfers in much the way a stripper teases his/her audience. It beckons, tempts and provides loads of visual interest.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forrest,

And like the stripper, we prefer not to see drain box covers when looking at her........

[Forrest Richardson]

It depends...sometimes a small amount of clothing (drain box grates) can be tantalizing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forrest,

I have HAD to peak under drain grates in the course of my work, but I have never been tantilized to put my nose down there because of the cover........

Now.....Nah, I won't go there......

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff B:

Within two years after the opening of the TPC at Sawgrass, Nicklaus was building waste bunkers along the edge of water hazards all over the southeast -- Loxahatchee, English Turn, etc.

Art Hills is another who co-opted the waste bunker style in the mid 1980's after never building anything before which looked like that.

I guess you could make a case that both of them were influenced by working with the Tour on a project -- the Tour's construction people in that day had all been involved with Pete somewhere before they came on board.

And how many island greens have you seen in the last twenty years?  Whitten saw so many of them 10-15 years ago that he was surprised to see a course which DIDN'T have one.

[Forrest Richardson]

That's just because Whitten doesn't get out that often.