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John Kavanaugh

Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2007, 08:10:40 PM »
Patrick,

Cuscowilla has a third hole as a par of 3.  It stops the flow like a cheese plate at a nursing home.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2007, 08:13:54 PM »
Would all these problems with par 3s exist if the courtesy of allowing following players to hit before putting out were followed? I played with a HS golf coach who claimed to have the data showing the problem doesn't exist if courtesy is followed.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2007, 09:24:17 PM »
The starter at BD usually holds you at the first tee until he sees golfers (two groups ahead) leave the second tee.

One of Oregon's rules people points out the pace of play problem with a 2nd hole par 3. His example is a group given 11 minutes to play the par 3, with 9 minute starting intervals. They will stand 2 minutes to hit waiting for the preceding group to clear. Theoretically the next group will have to wait 4 minutes. This is exaggerated when the first hole is quickly played, or when the 2nd is set up with some difficulty.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2007, 09:29:28 PM »
I think a bigger contributing factor to number 2 at BD is that it is such a long par 3 and a tough par.  A short par 3 with less teeth would allow groups to get thru measurably faster due to less chipping, less heroic rescues from the left hand side, as well as the shorter walk to the green.

I really don't think the long walk over to #2 green is a major contributing factor, if anything it would help to keep the flow moving better.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 09:30:09 PM by Kalen Braley »

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2007, 09:38:44 PM »

I think any slowdown at BD would be attributed to having a par 3 second; a definite routing flaw. This arrangement will always slow down play. Nice place to wait though. :D

Pete,

That's an interesting point.

What other notable resort courses have a par 3 for the second hole ?

Kapalua Plantation 2nd is a long-ish par 3... don't know how if impacts pace though.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2007, 10:05:53 PM »
Patrick,
 Bandon Trails and Kingsbarns.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2007, 10:11:05 PM »
I love the Bandon courses and I can't wait to get there again...but if we are talking about dumbed down...it would be nice if they actually set up the tee markers close to what the yardage on the card reads.

Both times I've played there, the tees on both BD and PD were so far forward it was a joke.
Resort golf at it's best..still better than just about anywhere else...but if I want to play the green? tees at PD it would be nice if they were in the same area as the card reads.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2007, 10:14:33 PM »
Don,

Tee markers? You don't need no stinkin' tee markers! A man of your length (so I hear) should just go back as far as you can without regard top tee markers!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2007, 10:40:42 PM »
Joe,
I was only thinking about my partners.
I'll tip out anytime anyone wants to "see the whole course".
I'm going to "tip out" with you this summer ;D

Josh_Lesnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2007, 10:47:20 PM »
Some locals would cringe at this since gorse is such a nuisance in Bandon (and caused the town to burn down twice), but we too love the way gorse looks and plays in certain places but so much of the gorse you are talking about was not there with the original design.  The gorse overtook the beach grass and dunes which looked better (in some people's opinion), was also penal if you hit it in there, but at least a golfer would find their ball.  Ultimately,  we have to manage it or it will take over the whole place, we just can't let it go.  It does look awful when we pull the gorse out - at first, I just don't know if there is a better way to manage it.  We are not intentionally softening up the course, but we don't see it as a bad thing if golfer's can find their ball and play it.  The dune sand and beach grass combo does not make for an easy up and down. And if it helps keep play moving, thats not bad either.

As far as the first hole on Bandon we had a couple things in mind.  First, as Tom said, we wanted to cut down on the number of golf balls in the parking lot.  Second, David Kidd did want to build a green down in that open sand by the second tees (which moved too).  So David built that alternative first hole.  Well, none of us like it as much as the original first hole, and frankly, believe it or not, it doesn't cut down on the balls that are taken by the summer wind to the right, so we're basically going to abandon the new hole and go back to the original.  We tried, and it didn't work.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2007, 10:52:42 PM »
I love the Bandon courses and I can't wait to get there again...but if we are talking about dumbed down...it would be nice if they actually set up the tee markers close to what the yardage on the card reads.

Both times I've played there, the tees on both BD and PD were so far forward it was a joke.
Resort golf at it's best..still better than just about anywhere else...but if I want to play the green? tees at PD it would be nice if they were in the same area as the card reads.

Interesting - I've seen it both ways.  When were you there?

I played the green tees on both trips.  In 2003, BD #4 played over 400 and #5 was back near the 440.  PD #18 was stretched to almost 600.  In 2005, all of those holes were playing from the true green markers, but a few other holes were bumped up.  Maybe they are slowly de-lengthening the courses as well.  

Personally, I preferred #4 from the 400 range, but I'd take #5 from the true green tee.  The 440 into the 3 club wind was a bit more than I could handle, though I did come through with a couple bogeys (pars for me from that location.)  I also like PD #18 from the higher, longer tee as I felt more comfortable swinging the driver from up there.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2007, 01:44:50 AM »
Cuscowilla has a third hole as a par of 3.  It stops the flow like a cheese plate at a nursing home.

Not to hi-jack this thread but for what it's worth . . . John, the 3rd rarely, if ever, backs up during member play . . . but when there is a group still putting when I approach the tee I find it a nice moment to watch the play ahead

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2007, 07:58:47 AM »

I think any slowdown at BD would be attributed to having a par 3 second; a definite routing flaw. This arrangement will always slow down play. Nice place to wait though. :D

Pete,

That's an interesting point.

What other notable resort courses have a par 3 for the second hole ?

Bandon Trails comes to mind...........

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2007, 11:15:40 AM »
As far as the first hole on Bandon we had a couple things in mind.  First, as Tom said, we wanted to cut down on the number of golf balls in the parking lot.  Second, David Kidd did want to build a green down in that open sand by the second tees (which moved too).  So David built that alternative first hole.  Well, none of us like it as much as the original first hole, and frankly, believe it or not, it doesn't cut down on the balls that are taken by the summer wind to the right, so we're basically going to abandon the new hole and go back to the original.  We tried, and it didn't work.

Josh,

That's great news to me.  I love the original first hole at Bandon Dunes.  Thanks for the information.  

Jim Colton

Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2007, 07:32:15 PM »
Some locals would cringe at this since gorse is such a nuisance in Bandon (and caused the town to burn down twice), but we too love the way gorse looks and plays in certain places but so much of the gorse you are talking about was not there with the original design.  The gorse overtook the beach grass and dunes which looked better (in some people's opinion), was also penal if you hit it in there, but at least a golfer would find their ball.  Ultimately,  we have to manage it or it will take over the whole place, we just can't let it go.  It does look awful when we pull the gorse out - at first, I just don't know if there is a better way to manage it.  We are not intentionally softening up the course, but we don't see it as a bad thing if golfer's can find their ball and play it.  The dune sand and beach grass combo does not make for an easy up and down. And if it helps keep play moving, thats not bad either.

As far as the first hole on Bandon we had a couple things in mind.  First, as Tom said, we wanted to cut down on the number of golf balls in the parking lot.  Second, David Kidd did want to build a green down in that open sand by the second tees (which moved too).  So David built that alternative first hole.  Well, none of us like it as much as the original first hole, and frankly, believe it or not, it doesn't cut down on the balls that are taken by the summer wind to the right, so we're basically going to abandon the new hole and go back to the original.  We tried, and it didn't work.

Josh, welcome to GCA.  I'm glad they are keeping the old #1.

Any news/updates on Old MacDonald?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2007, 07:36:08 PM »
Welcome as well Josh,

Dare I even mention this, but has there been any discussion on possibly putting in a screen to the right of #1 to protect the structures?  Perhaps instead of using the traditional black it can be camoflauge colors to better blend in with the local background.  ;D

Or perhaps just nets over the windows will do and let the ping-ponging carry on??
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 07:36:49 PM by Kalen Braley »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2007, 07:44:15 PM »

Dare I even mention this, but has there been any discussion on possibly putting in a screen to the right of #1 to protect the structures?  Perhaps instead of using the traditional black it can be camoflauge colors to better blend in with the local background.  ;D


You should be immediately banished from GCA  ;D

Why not have the starter hand out anti-slice tees?  :P

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2007, 11:15:00 PM »
By the introduction of the alternate first green, the elimination of the gorse down the right side of the ninth and the elimination of the gorse behind the 14th green?   Elsewhere?

According to staff, the number of rounds there slightly exceeds those at Pacific Dunes, primarily becuase of the returning nines and central location, factors that would lead one to label this as their "resort" course.

Mike


I was told in March by the starter, that there is no intent to completely eliminate the use of the original 1st green on Bandon Dunes.  I completely agree that the original is a far better play.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon Dunes Being Dumbed Down?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2007, 03:39:39 PM »
Josh,  Glad to see you figured out how to post.  thanks for the great information.  Now don't be a stranger.

    Shel