[Mark Arata]

Which he didnt actually do at all, nice NY POST style headline on an article.......

They are calling him out for ripping the 17th hole, I dont believe he ever said that......I sort of agree with him too, it is a great hole, but maybe not for the 71st hole of a championship........Thoughs?


Woods rips the TPC's signature 17th

By Cameron Morfit
Senior Writer, GOLF Magazine
Published: May 08, 2007


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PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla., May 8 — At his Tuesday morning press conference, Tiger Woods ripped the 137-yard 17th hole at TPC Sawgrass, the signature feature of the course, home of this week's Players Championship.

The fledgling course designer, coming off a win at the Wachovia last weekend, was asked if the water hazard that claims so many balls ought to have been filled in with dirt, in light of all the changes to the course in the last year.

"You'd probably lose the allure of the hole," Woods said. "I've always thought that that hole is too gimmicky for the 17th hole of a championship. As far as the 8th hole, I think that would be a fantastic 8th hole, but not as the 71st hole of a tournament or 17th hole of your round."

See images from Tiger's practice round

To say the 17th is the centerpiece of the Players Championship would be an understatement. The PGA Tour Webcasts the often calamitous action from the hole, which graces the cover of this week's Sports Illustrated Golf Plus, as it has so many other publications for years. The grass banks to the left of the water hazard are among the most prized pieces of real estate for spectators.

All of which makes Woods's "gimmicky" comment the equivalent of telling the bride that she has a zit on her nose. He seemed to realize what he'd done and tried to backpedal when he was asked later in the press conference, "Why do you dislike the 17th so much?"

"I didn't say that," Woods said.

The question was rephrased: "Why do you think it's — you just wish it was like an 8th hole?"

"Exactly. I just think it's a wonderful hole, but I don't agree with it being the 17th or the 71st hole of a championship because I just think that it is a little gimmicky in that sense. I think it's a great 8th hole or another part of the golf course. ... I just don't think that it's the right feel. I understand that fans love it."

Hold on. Did he think the island hole was gimmicky or wonderful? Could it be both? Woods cracked a joke when he was pressed to further explain his position, and he finally gave up.

"I don't know," he said. "I know you guys are digging here (laughter), but I don't know."

[Gary Slatter]

He's right, it would make a better 8th hole than a 17th.  

There must be a reason why every course does not have an island green.  Love maintenance costs, good ball sales.

The 17th at Quail Hollow is almost an island green but not as gimmicky as TPC.

It's a made for TV hole. The PGA TOUR is a TV event.

[cary lichtenstein]

My first round a the TPC was played the week after the 1st tournmament. I could wait to get out to the 17th tee, neither could the 35 mph winds.

After 6 shots that found their watery grave(I hit the green 5 times, but nothing held), I dug into my wife's bag for a couple of balls, she immediately told me that 6 was quite enough.

I haven't been back since.

[Mark Arata]

When I played there, they had the tees over by the drop area, so we asked if we could go back and play it from in front of the hedges, like on TV, and they let us.

It was a routine 8 iron, and it wasnt really a hard shot at all.....I think it is cool that you think about that hole from the moment you step foot on the property, but you dont see it all until your 2nd shot on 16th... The puckering factor must be huge for a tournament, but if a hack like me can hit that green with no problems 3 times in 3 rounds, I dont see what the big deal should be to a tour pro......Just my opinion.....

[Tony_Muldoon]

Doesn't this show the difficulty of being Tiger Woods?  He makes a comment and would probably be happy to back it up amongst friends but then the follow up question has a dubious subtext and so he withdraws from the debate.  The headline writer then puts up his story regardless of what was actually said.





If you are reading this Tiger; isn’t it because it’s the 71st hole that it defies conventional reasoning and becomes so interesting a hole?

Sorry, just dreaming what an intelligent conversation with the man might read like.

[Mark Arata]

I think what he means is that maybe a 2 stroke penalty on the 71st hole for hitting a ball a yard short or having a gust of wind knock a well hit shot into the water is "gimmicky"
where as on a different sort of hole, at least you would have the opportunity to recover and hit a great chip or sand shot to save your round.....I can see his point, and I can see the other point of view, that it makes for great drama and TV and that it puts a lot of pressure on these guys at the end of a tournament....

I am of the opinion that Tiger is much more like a normal guy
everyone thinks when away from the spotlight, and that it is just too hard for him to cut loose in front of the public or the media for headlines just like this one.....he didnt rip the hole at all in my opinion, he just said he didnt like where it fell in the overall routing of the course.......

But you are right, he cant win no matter what he says, and he is too reliant on corporate dollars and sponsorships to cut loose like a Barkley....I am willing to bet he becomes a lot more outspoken and colorful once his competitive golf days are over.........

[Guy Nicholson]

Doesn't this show the difficulty of being Tiger Woods?  He makes a comment and would probably be happy to back it up amongst friends but then the follow up question has a dubious subtext and so he withdraws from the debate.  The headline writer then puts up his story regardless of what was actually said.

Not to excuse the headline, but such is the risk when one sells oneself so thoroughly for a living. Trust me, considering the compensation, he doesn't think it's that difficult.

[Craig Sweet]

Tiger didn't rip anything...he stated reality. The hole IS GIMMICKY, and a gimmick should not pop up on the 17th or 71st hole...and determine a round, or a tournament....the architect should be shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

We'll make sure Pete Dye gets a restraining order against a gun totin' Montanan like you.  

[Steve Lang]

 

its the 9th hole at Houston's Tour 18.. makes for a great bet for buying drinks at the turn.. and obviously closest to the pin competitions..

but i disagree with Tiger.. please show me where it is written what the final holes of a 21st century major should be???

[Karl Bernetich]

It is the 8th hole when you start on 10.
And that makes a difference ???

[Voytek Wilczak]

It is the 8th hole when you start on 10.
And that makes a difference

Karl:

Yes.

For you can make up the loss when you put it in the drink on the 8th hole in tournament play (which starts in most cases  on the 1st hole), but you can't do that if you're wet on the 17th...

That's Mr Woods' point.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know if I buy into this line of logic.

If a tournament player is trying his best on every hole, why does it matter when it comes??  If he takes the double bogey on the 8th hole instead of the 17th hole, at the end of the round all the strokes still add up the same last time I checked.

I think what Tiger is really saying here is he doesn't like the choke factor coming so late in the round.  While it does make it tough on them, it makes for great drama on the 71st hole.  After all TPC-Sawgrass is supposed to make them earn and sweat for everything they get right?  

As to the comment made earlier by one who put it on the green everytime 3 rounds in a row.  Trying doing that under the stress and pressure of thousands of people watching with the TV cameras trained in on your every move. I'll bet the pucker factor is at least 10x at that point.  Then if you're in contention factor in another 10x stress factor.

[Tim Gavrich]

Call me crazy, but to me, #17 at Sawgrass is probably the only island-green hole in the world that is NOT gimmicky.  This is because it was essentially the first of its kind in golf (I know about Tillinghast's Moat Hole, but this is different).  It is an integral part of the identity of one of the (IMHO) most important courses in all of GCA (at least in the Modern Era).  The Players Championship is not The Players Championship without that hole; plain and simple.  And furthermore, I think that the final three holes at Sawgrass are as exciting a finish as there is in golf.  If a leader heads to 16 with a one or two stroke lead, he will have to earn his trophy over the last few holes, which I think draws out the rightful winner.

Also, I find it a bit ironic that people (I'm speaking about the general feeling among the board, not individuals) praise Oakmont's penal nature, but dislike the same penal nature of Sawgrass 17 (and the rest of the course as well, at times).  What is the difference?  Because based on what I've heard about the fairway bunkers at Oakmont, the "shot of extrication" is not very different from taking a drop and penalty stroke.

[James Bennett]

Augusta # 12 - several winners have hit short into the water in round 4, and have been able to recover and win.  Absolute memorable television. Not sure if this ever happens on #17 at TPC.  It might if it was #8 or #12.

Also, water at Augusta #11, #13, #15 and #16 (all with some degree of bail-out option) but no water on #17 and #18.  Regular PGA tour event has water on #18 (including TPC).

Which events have the greatest allure?  Augusta seems to have a better mix across the back nine, without the 'elimination from competition' aspect of water on the last two holes.

James B

[Adam Clayman]

I'm sure his comment only solidifies it as a great hole, being the 71st hole of a championship, in the mind of the designer.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oddly, one of its distant ancestors - the postage stamp at Troon (yes, sand surrounds, not water) is the 8th there.

I wonder about the logic of not wanting a two stroke penalty at the 71st hole.  If incurred by a tied or behind player, it ends the match (although the leader could foolishly give it away on that 18th, and I think that should be considered here) but if incurred by a leader by a stroke, it changes, but doesn't end the match.  

So, it could cut both ways.  Is having a decisive hole that bad a thing, or does every match have to limp home to 18 with a small chance of catching the leader?

I have always heard the strength of the hole is that it starts to affect your strategy way earlier, making you perhaps more aggressive, knowing that a double may loom.  If that is the case, the two stroke penalty may really be four or five, depending on how much it gets in a players head.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I certainly can understand why a player would not want it to be the 71st hole of the tournament.  But for the viewer it is very exciting to see how well a player can hold it together.

[Tim Bert]

Better as an 8th from a player's standpoint or from a strategy standpoint - perhaps.

Better from a TV or entertainment standpoint.  No way.  People love to watch the trainwreck down the stretch.

[Craig Sweet]

It's a total gimmick and has no business coming so close the end of a round...heck, even at ANGC you have two holes to recover from 16...

[Adam Clayman]

Freddie Couples would prove that it isn't an automatic two shot penalty for finding the drink on his first.

Craig Sweet, You must be kidding or drunk? 16 at ANGC? Gimme a break.

[Matthew Rose]

It's a 9-iron/PW from a perfect lie. For a PGA tour pro that should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm just surprised nobody's tried to build a back tee on it and make it 220 yards yet.

[Doug Ralston]

GCA is either just the right place, or just the wrong place; to discuss this idea. For the idea is clearly the idea of 'fairness' again.

Tiger clearly envisions himself coming to #17 with a one stroke  lead over Phil on a day with erratic winds. Mickelson hits 1st, the wind is quiet, and Phil hits it to 12ft. Tiger steps up and the wind begins to gust this way or that, sometimes strong and sometimes not. How does he choose the correct moment? Does hit hit left and let the anticipated wind bring it back over the green? Or does he hope for a smaller wind and accept he must play it within the green's confines, with a 40ft putt if it does not blow while his ball is in the air?

All that fantasy is to say, Tiger wishes that, coming down the stretch, luck played a minimal part. #17 enhances the possible luck factors right at the point where every confident Pro believes it is his skill that should decide the issue.

You may, as many here do, think luck should play an enormous part in even professional golf at the highest levels. Or you may believe luck should be minimized, and skill maximized, as Tiger clearly does.

Wouldn't YOU though, if you had HIS skills?

Doug

[tlavin]

From a competitive standpoint, his point may have merit, but from the perspective of a golf fan, I think he's dead wrong.  If this hole was #8, it would hardly have gained the  notoriety that it has achieved.  If this island green were on #8, the majority of the conversation would be along these lines, "didn't Dye miss an opportunity to make this an even more special hole by not putting it in the final three or four holes, so it would influence who wins or loses the tournament?"  It's not a gimmick to place this hole at #17, it's the work of an architect who understands the stage that he is creating.  This particular stage is for television and tournament golf.  It's unmitigated genius.  Thank you Alice Dye.

[noonan]

Better as an 8th from a player's standpoint or from a strategy standpoint - perhaps.

Better from a TV or entertainment standpoint.  No way.  People love to watch the trainwreck down the stretch.

Nail hit on head.

A true competitor would not like the windmill on 17 to have such a drastic effect on the outcome.

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