How good is Kingsbarns?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bill & Tom,
Whad made 17 so great or best?
I thought it was very nice looking, it is a challenge - I was psyched to make an up & down into the wind for 4, but not really unique - to my eyes.

I don't know what to think about your opinions on 6 & 16, why so harsh if they are behind the greens?  Weren't the opening to the burn small, and thus not likely to find a ball?

Cheers

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm sure it's very nice but no modern Scottish course is worth £160 a round or £240 a day. It's too expensive and will not change until visitors vote with their pockets amd give Kingsbarns a very wide berth.

For the same money you can get a day at Muirfield the UKs #1 course, full lunch and a night in a local B&B.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

an awful lot of top courses built between 1890 and 1930 were built with hotels over looking them but I am not sure that either Nairn or Royal Dornoch belong to that breed. I have no problem with such and indeed the view of the Hotel when playing the 18th on the Kings Course at Gleneagles is stupendous.

My original comments were however nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of hotels on a golf course. I did wish to make the point that one of KB's biggest assets, apart from the course, is the ambience of the place and a lot of effort was made to make the sea the focal point of the experience to the point where the views inland were all but blocked out so as not to detract.

It therefor seems strange that with a similar mission statement at Castle Stuart they intend to do just that.

To answer your question of to build or not to build which I overlooked before. If there is no other way or it fits the concept then yes you should include such things. If however you say on the one side this is for the golf and can afford it but then do something that is the opposite then no.

Do you know of a course that is better becouse of the real estate on it?

[Daryl David]

Muirfield moving to 200 pounds for a day in 2008 getting them closer to the 240 at Kingsbarns.  Two rounds at Carnoustie is now 230.

Wonder who is influencing who?  Is Kingsbarns leading with price advances that the other clubs see as successful and then follow?  Or the other way around.  Seldom does the new entrant to a market have pricing power.  If they do, then that is quite an accomplishment.

[Marty Bonnar]

I'll definitely play King's at Gleneagles way before as well.

...and my work here is complete.

bwah, ha, Ha, HA HAH!!!!!

 
FBD.

[David_Tepper]

Jon W. -

It is my understanding Castle Stuart is being developed as a commercial business venture - a "destination golf resort," in the same vain as Turmberry, Gleneagles, Pebble Beach, et. al.  

For better or worse, it is not being created as a golf club for a local membership and/or daily fee play. I doubt such a venture could be financially viable in this day and age.  It is also interesting to note that both Turnberry & Gleneagles have, for better or worse, embarked on an active program of developing timeshares/condos on their properties

I know the surrounding area a little bit. To the best of my knowledge, there are very, very few accomodations (hotels, B&B's, restaurants, etc.) within a 5 mile radius of Castle Stuart. It is hard to imagine such a venture could succeed without its own hotel facility.

Whether the adjacent hotel/timeshare buildings enhance the nature of the golf experience is secondary to the question of whether they allow the golf experience to be created and exist in the first place.  Without the hotel, there would be no golf course to have ambience!  

You may also be interested to know that Peter de Savary, the new owner of the Royal Golf Hotel in Dornoch, is renovating that property and plans to build a number of apartments/timeshare units there.

Call it progress (of a sort!) or a sign of the times.

DT    

[redanman]

Here is a question to contemplate - what are the odds the Open will be played at Kingsbarns within the next 15-20 years?  

zero  ..... I think

Why?

It is not a true links and the Open Championship as I understand it MUST be played on a links.

Mike Nuzzo

(17) It was the most hazard-laden hole, the most random, the one that was closest to the real deal of links.

Daryl David

The pricing for Muirfield  £200, Troon  £235, Prestwick   £120 is all market driven.  Lower Manhattan supply and demand.  More and more Americans want to notch their belts.  I'd personally rather that they'd stick to Kingsbarns and Ailsa.

[Bob_Huntley]

Here is a question to contemplate - what are the odds the Open will be played at Kingsbarns within the next 15-20 years?  

I agree with the good doctor, zero.

As I pay but $10.00 to play the place I think it is as good as it gets in Scotland. I daresay to pay twenty times as much may require some additional thought but the course is a stunning addition to one's choice over there.

I disagree with the good doctor on preferring to play the Kings course Gleneagles. What is it that some of you think the place needs to become as good as Pacific Dunes?


Bob

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

'find paradise, put up a parking lot'

I am not trying to be little CS. What is happening their in term of the course alone is fantastic and as such you are of course correct if you want to build at all costs.

Are Gleneagles and Turnberry building their Timeshares on the courses?

I hope however that you are not correct about members and pay&play no longer being financially viable.

[Gary Slatter]

Gary, I'd argue the Members dining room downstairs at Prestwick beats anything!

Downstairs is great, but after 36 holes in 40degree weather upstairs was great - we had a group of 15 and upstairs got our vote over all the other club fare. Beer price was a factor, the hot chowder was so good!
My wife got to tour the downstairs area, loved the pictures. Our caddie said "only her and Lady Di bin in there"

[Robert Thompson]

I walked the Castle Stuart site with Gil Hanse last year -- it is an interesting piece of property with numerous holes right on the water -- eight if I recall -- and most are immediately adjacent to the sea.

As for the hotel, it will be back of the upper holes, equally dramatic that overlook the sea. It is surely an intriguing mix.

My understanding from speaking with Mark Parsinen on several occasions is that Kingsbarns was built a lot more cost effectively than most people recognize. I think Mark is very careful in regards to cost, and it is my understanding from speaking to several involved with the course, that it has generally been a financial success.

That said, the former super complained about the soil quality and about the difficulty of keeping Kingsbarns links-like. He said the same mistakes won't be made at Castle Stuart. I'd be betting Castle Stuart is a home run -- Gil is spending a lot of time and energy to make it so and is aware the project will put him on the map. It is his Pacific Dunes, so to speak.

As for my thoughts on Kingsbarns -- well, you can nitpick the shaping, but they did use Robert Price to advise on the dune formation they created, and he's an expert. I have played Kingsbarns five times and always enjoyed the experience. The options off the tee are almost limitless, but the approaches to the greens can be tricky. The front nine is outstanding, with a fine mix of holes (I love the short 6th, and the 8th, with its funky green). There is no denying the terrific 12th, though the green might be too large, and the 14th offers a variety of shots off the tee. The 15th is a great three, and the 16th and 17th are also intriguing. The 18th just doesn't set up right to my eye -- but that's probably just me.

[mike_beene]

It is my personal top 5 in Scotland.I like it better than any west coast courses.I could make a trip out of TOC and Kingsbarns.Plus,the view of Carnoustie from Kingsbarns looks better than the view of Carnoustie from Carnoustie.

[Pete_Pittock]

  It may be top five Scotland, which is a tough nut to crack.  I was there five weeks ago and reluctantly parted with my $300+. It was still value money. Liked the way the routing jabbed at the coastline and had you playing the forth in both directions. 12-15 is a good stretch and was fascinated with the 14th green and how differing hole locations affacted your decision on the tee.
  It is really the spur for new course construction in Scotland because it turned out so well and its acceptance. Some have said, and I agree, that the Castle Course was built because the SALT saw their monopoly on the local tourist dollar being threatened.
  George Peper's recent Links article commented on the golf spurt. We know about Kidd at Castle and Machrihanish, Doak at Renaissance, and Castle Stuart near Inverness. And Trump.
But I hadn't been aware of Nicklaus/Ritz Carlton at Dalquharran near Turnberry, Montgomerie at Rowallan south of Glasgow, DeVere Cameron by Doug Carrick, which is near Loch Lomond or the Wieskopf course adjacent to Dukes.

[Robert Thompson]

Don't forget the new Nicklaus course at Loch Lomond.

[Paul Richards]

>How good is Kingsbarns?


It's really good.


It's the real deal.


 

[Pete_Pittock]

Robert,
I was relying on Peper's article which mentioned it but said construction had not started because of appeals.

[Robert Thompson]

I had dinner with the super at Loch Lomond last September and he gave the indication everything was proceeding.

[Gerry B]

my thoughts / opinion  : if you judge the course on its own merit -ie.  disregard where it is located - to avoid comparisons to the many classics in the area  - it is a really good golf course.

[Mike Erdmann]

Kingsbarns is a very good golf course, but top 5 in Scotland?  While I could understand someone putting it towards the bottom end of the top 10, I personally would much rather play TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, Carnoustie, Machrihanish, Royal Aberdeen, North Berwick, & Cruden Bay.  And that's leaving out Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, Gleneagles & Loch Lomond because I haven't played those yet.

As mentioned, Kingsbarns lacks the internal fairway contouring that to me provides much of the magic and attraction of a links course.  I found the routing a little awkward with the walk from 11 to 12 and then again from 14 back to 15.  I lreally liked 4, especially the shot into the green, along with the drive on 6 and 17.  18's a dog though.

[Brian Phillips]

Kingsbarns is the greatest constructed golf course in Europe.  

I cannot think of any other place in Europe that has created such a fantastic course from such a bland canvas (apart from the views).

I have played a fair number of links courses around Britain and to me it is as linksy as any other links that I have played.  It is a lot wider than most links courses that I know.  I would even say that some of the holes are wider than TOC.

I don't agree with Tom about the blind stream behind the 6th.  It is a modern course and everyone who plays there the first time gets a strokesaver and I do not know anyone that has ever gone in it.

Martin,

In all the rounds that you have been there how many times have you seen someone hit the stream?

It is a links course and 99% of people on here would not know that it was manufactured unless told.  Anyone who plays there in 20 to 30 years time will just accept it as so and not winge about internal countouring etc etc.

Portmarnock has hardly any internal contouring neither does Muirfield so I just don't buy that.

As I have said before, nearly every Golf Course Architect in the world would die a happy man if it had been them that had designed Kingsbarns and anyone who says they are not is a twisted and bitter soul.

[Rich Goodale]

I agree with Brian, generally in general, but specifically about the 6th.  It is a superb golf hole, whose design principles deserve to be copied and/or interpreted.

[Mark Chaplin]

John - It's true about Gleneagles and Turnberry but both are commercial ventures and have never been members golf clubs. I think it virtually impossible to build an upscale venture in Scotland to be run as a members club targetted at the local market. Obviously Loch Lomond is very international, but not sure about Archerfield but with so much quality golf in the area I would doubt they have many local members.

Funny story about Archerfield, when the Japanese originally purchased the land and were about the commence the development they wrote to the Honorable Company offering a reciprocol arrangement between the 2 clubs, my understanding is they never received a reply!

I guess Kingsbarns is commercially successful because they've quickly managed to be a must play venue, especially for overseas visitors. Gerry makes a good point but it is right next door to St.Andrews and has to compete against the mother of all golf courses. Has anyone walked the Castle course yet? I wonder if Kingsbarns more than the St. Andrews Links Trust courses will suffer because of the castle course.  

[Chris Kane]

Mark, there are a large number of wealthy visitors to St Andrews who play the Old Course, and want another upscale course to play where money is no object.  That is why Kingsbarns has been a success at that location.

I suspect part of the reason for building the No.7 course is to steal some of that "second course market" from Kingsbarns - the Links Trust figure that if big money is being spent, it might as well be at their facility!

Of course, No.7 will have to be very good to entice the Americans away from Kingsbarns.

[Rich Goodale]

Fully agree with Chris.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I've had Kingsbarns on my must play list for a little while now.

I'm in Scotland with my (non golfing) daughter in late June and have a day free in the Dundee area and was considering my options as a singleton golfer (TOC being a siginificant possibility). Does anyone know if Kingsbarns accept tee time reservations from singles or (like TOC) do they have a policy of actively trying to match up singles to other groups?