News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
How good is Kingsbarns?
« on: May 08, 2007, 12:56:53 PM »
Despite it not being so new anymore, there is a huge amount of hype in Scotland about Kingsbarns - every second person I speak to seems to think its the best course in the country!  



As a result, possibly because I'm somewhat contrarian and a bit of a snob, I expected to be disappointed when I played there this morning.  How could a course which is almost entirely manufactured, built post-millenium, compete with the best links in the home of golf?





Well, I was pleasantly surprised - I think its an exceptional golf course and easily the second best in the St Andrews area.  Stunning location, excellent routing and imaginative green complexes add up to good hole after good hole!



Some Scots like to deride Kingsbarns as being an "American-style links courses".  They might have a point, but the course is far from being target golf without trees.  I wonder how many golfers would pick the course as being seven years old rather than a hundred years old if they weren't told?





How highly do you rate it?

Rich Goodale

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 01:05:19 PM »
Great pics and comments, Chirs.

It's definitly top-10 in Scotland and arguably the best course in the St. Andrews area.  Probably also top-10 of all courses built in the last 10 years.  Certainly as good as Pacific Dunes.

Tom Huckaby

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 01:17:02 PM »
Now this might not please Farnsworth considering the source, but I agree with him 100%.  Kingsbarns is fantastic and I've always thought its detractors were perhaps a wee bit too anti-modern.

Downsides are it is rather expensive for visitors.... but heck most well-known courses over there are so.  I'd call it a must play without a doubt.

TH




Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 01:20:36 PM »
Just curious Chris, how much do they charge for a St. Andrews resident to play there?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 01:20:45 PM »
Rich:

I'll agree with you to the extent that I believe Kingsbarns might be a better job of golf course architecture than Pacific Dunes, for what each started with.  But, we'll have to agree to disagree on the overall merits.  Luckily for me, I've got the majority on my side in that debate.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 01:23:28 PM »
Pete, they charge a £15 "booking fee" for St Andrews residents and members of St Andrews golf clubs who are northeast Fife residents.  R&A members are also part of the scheme.


Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 01:24:56 PM »
Unless Kyle Philips is Hammy Hearst, I believe I might be the best GCAer (only just!) to comment on Kingsbarns.

Interesting, Chris, that you have chosen to post a few of my least favourite views/holes here. Chance perchance? Or deliberate choice?

My considered opinion is akin to Farnie's. Scottish Top 10, defo. UK top 25, probo. Maybe even Scottish Top 5....?

Fave three holes: 5 - that greensite opening you've pictured so well is positively labial in it's delicious 'entrance-ness'; 6 - My favourite EVER risk-reward design; and 17 - wonderful driving hole with a most challenging second shot to that ridiculously three-tiered greeeeeeeeen. Wheee!

Least fave three holes: 2 - dullish downhill par 3 that can be reached by a twenty-five-yard left-pull bounced down the hill (and boy, have I seen a LOT of those there...!); 11 - again you've pictured it. ho-hum drive to ho-hum green which is too close to the trees on the south side. Quite damp and mossy wee corner there and; 13 - I'm beginning to agree with Rich that's it's all filler and no sandwich...

FBD
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 01:30:41 PM »
Martin:

My three favorite holes would be 4, 7, and 17.

My least favorite are probably 6 and 16, because I hate the use of a blind water hazard behind the green, no matter how many "options" the holes do give you.

Rich Goodale

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 01:36:58 PM »
Pete

Fife residents pay about 55 squid/round.  The only St. Andrews (or other) people who get a real break are R&A members, who play for #15 or so due to a financing deal when the course was built.

Tom

At least I'm consistent!  I put Pacific Dunes and Kingsbarns at level pegging 5-6 years ago when I first played them, and I'll stick with that opinion.  You are right that others think differently, but that does not mean that they are right..... :)

Both are potentially great golf courses, providing that loving care and inspired amelioration is lavished on them over the next 20-50 years.

Huck

Thanks for the moral support.

Rich

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 01:38:22 PM »
Tom,
4 IS a beauty. I've seen it played every way possible and it is the epitome of strategic design. The skyline green has some of the best contouring of the whole course too.
We've debated(?) 6/16 before as I recall!! I'm with you on 16 but give 6 a free pass for the reward for the great drive. It's a VERY wind-driven choice hole!
Did you get round to Doakscaling KB or was it added to the Gourmet's Choice?

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 02:00:35 PM »
While I am sure there is more than a wee bit of hype attached, Mark Parsinen (developer of Kingsbarns) has been quoted as saying he thinks his new project site at Castle Stuart has more potential than the Kingsbarn site.  

www.castlestuartgolf.com

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 02:24:12 PM »
Whats the story of the dyke wall behind the 13th green ? .

redanman

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 02:40:27 PM »
My initial reaction was:

"This is not what I want to play when I come over here."
"A disappointment."

My final impression is a bit of a mixed bag but definitely more
positive on reflection. I needed to think of where its place
truly is in the golf world.

It is clearly manufactured; in fact they tried way too hard
for shelving, skylines, angles of views, WOW! factor - but what
do you expect from some amurikens?  :) It is indeed an
American links-style interpretive golf course, but much
 better than Bayonne, for instance. There is plenty or room
for such a course in the wonderful  world of golf and gca.

What put me off so much at first?

The first posted photo is a good example.  All the rumply
stuff is off to the side. I would have liked to see more of
it in the line of play. The course for me lacks a certain soul
and seems altogether too fair. It's too smooth and polished
especially considering its scale.

Some of the features are way too manufactured as is the
very large revetted bunker greenside on the first par 5 (3?)
and also the bunker revetted into the hill behind the 18th seen
in the last posted photo.  That one although functional just seems silly - all backwards-facing and all.

On the positive it is a very good well-constructed modern
golf course with an emphasis on being fair, perhaps a bit too
much as I found features collecting rather than repelling shots
more frequently rather than randomly. I expect to get a rub of
the green and sometimes really effed.  

I can't think of a single must-recommend "signature" if you will
hole, perhaps that is good as the course is very solid hole-to-
hole without any real stinkers, either.  Personally I liked #17
 best and #18 least, but 12-14 is a nice stretch and I
understand that that land was added at the last minute
to the parcel. (Pschew!) All in all it is a very good place to play
golf, but thoroughly modern.  Even the clubhouse felt like
Cleveland, OH or something.

It needed a tighter more intimate routing, especially since they
 could have done whatever they wanted (and apparently did!)
building it from scratch.

Interestingly I hit a big pull on #4 and played up to the green
 from #3 and that certainly took the fairway bunkers out of
play and perhaps may be the better way to play the front
left pin. :)

Several days later talking with my caddie on the Old Course
(An English Engineer who has been caddying while his Father
was terminal and living nearby), we had some philosophical
discussions about the Old Course, Kingsbarn and golf course
design.  With all of us, familiarity does indeed breed contempt
and that is one reason that the people of the UK may like
Kingsbarn so much and and I initially was so let down by it.  We
get a certain familiarity which we love and some which we
wish to at times leave behind. Americans visiting there are
bound to love it, maybe even more than Ailsa or HCEG.
Chacon a son gout

How do I put it?  About #200 on my rush-back to play list.  It is
ahead of Bayonne and The Dukes' at TOC Hotel, probably ahead
of the majority of new to newish American efforts as the setting
is spectacular and unreproducible.  It is going to be interesting
to compare the Castle to Kingsbarns.

I would recommend it to anyone, but I have way too many mid
and little links and parkland courses to play first before going back. I'll definitely play Brora, Prestwick, Machrihanish, King's
at Gleneagles, Royal Aberdeen and Pac Dunes way before as well.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 02:40:49 PM »
Judging solely from photographs, the only thing I'll note is that the fairways look far less rumpled and wrinkled than most links courses, and if so, that's a negative to me. And that's a criticism I have of many modern courses I play, for what that's worth.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 02:42:26 PM »
The first posted photo is a good example.  All the rumply
stuff is off to the side. I would have liked to see more of
it in the line of play. The course for me lacks a certain soul
and seems altogether too fair. It's too smooth and polished
especially considering its scale.

And Pat says you can't tell anything from photographs....

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2007, 02:51:08 PM »
I'm an American visitor.

I did not like the clubhouse - it was functional, but BV is right, it might as well have been in Cleveland.  Of course it's pretty difficult to create instant age, so I give them a pass there.  In any case this is not about the clubhouse but the golf course.

And I did really enjoy Kingsbarns - I'm not prepared to say it's better than either Muirfield or Turnberry Ailsa - that's a tough call - but I would call it great for sure, and Rich's "Top 10 in Scotland" works for me.

As for George's comments, I've played a lot of links, and yes, one of the cool things about them is rumply ground.  I did not miss such at Kingsbarns.  Perhaps there is a lack of it but the larger rolls are very present, and the shots to be played are so darn fun, like I say I didn't miss it.

If and when I go back to Scotland it's on my must play again list for sure.  In fact I can't imagine being in that area and NOT playing Kingsbarns, and I'd say that about exactly one other course - The Old Course.

Thus Doctor V. and I would seem to disagree.  But that's cool, that just means all is right with the world.

 ;D

John Goodman

Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 03:16:46 PM »
It's a fine course; I'd give it about a Doak 7.  I have been back to St. Andrews since I first played it, and I didn't return to Kingsbarns, opting for Crail (Balcomie) that day instead.  I will be in the area again next year, and don't have plans to return then either.  There are some first-rate holes there, no doubt, but I found myself feeling a little of what Bill describes - too little quirk, a bit too "made."  It is a course of great merit and I would recommend it to anybody, but I can't see it cracking into my favorite 10 in Scotland any time soon.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 03:21:13 PM »
Here is a question to contemplate - what are the odds the Open will be played at Kingsbarns within the next 15-20 years?  


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 03:24:08 PM »
I would put Kings Barnes as the best course built in Scotland in the last 20 years. The only hole I didn't feel met the standard was the 11th although the 18th green with burn sticks out like a sore thumb.

David,

I have been following the Castle Stuart project very closely as I know the head greenkeeper there. Yes, the site has a spectacular setting and the potential to be as good as KB. However, the 200+ timeshares and massive modern hotel are certainly going to go a long way to destroying the ambience of the place.

A case of greed before principle perhaps?

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 03:37:45 PM »
Kingsbarns is a great course, to use an american -type expression,  "it's the best course never to have hosted the Open".  Regardless of its' heritage, it is worth playing whenever you get a chance!  

My friends living in Scotland have done a complete turn, 4 years ago they said it wasn't any good, now they love it!

David - it will host the Open within 20 years is my guess. They are doing a good job with the R&A.

Clubhouse and mats on the practice tee are not relative to how good the course is, and it's enjoyable for higher handicappers as well as Pros.  

Can anywhere beat upstairs at Prestwick for pub type food and drink?
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2007, 03:44:10 PM »
Jon W. -

Granted, all my information is second-, if not third-hand, but my sense is Kingsbarns has struggled at times to remain financially solvent as a golf course-only venture.

If a project such as Castle Stuart needs the hotel/resort facilities to be financially viable, would you rather see the project and course built on those terms or not built at all?

Do the "massive" hotels at Turnberry or Gleneagles detract or add to the ambience of those golf courses? Would those courses have been built if those hotels had not been developed alongside them?

DT    

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2007, 04:05:02 PM »
Gary, I'd argue the Members dining room downstairs at Prestwick beats anything!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2007, 04:22:26 PM »
Jon W. -

Granted, all my information is second-, if not third-hand, but my sense is Kingsbarns has struggled at times to remain financially solvent as a golf course-only venture.

If a project such as Castle Stuart needs the hotel/resort facilities to be financially viable, would you rather see the project and course built on those terms or not built at all?

Do the "massive" hotels at Turnberry or Gleneagles detract or add to the ambience of those golf courses? Would those courses have been built if those hotels had not been developed alongside them?

DT    

Hey if its good enough for the grand-daddy of them all, TOC, to have a hotel right on the course, then it shouldn't be a problem elsewhere right?    ;D ;)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2007, 04:32:13 PM »
David,

yes and no.

Yes, if such projects need the hotels to finance them then there is little argument about it. On the the other hand if the course is there to sell the real estate then the answer is no.

I believe that Mark P and his co-investors really could finance it without so much housing. The site was already good enough to build a top class course without much earth movement. Yet, they have moved an incredible amount of earth under the previso that the golfer should not be able to see inland because the hills, woodland and odd building (all be it given that one is an ugly looking factory) detracts from the seaward views and general ambience of the place. It is however okay for the golfer to see all the time share and modern style hotel. The two ideas just don't seem to go together for me.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How good is Kingsbarns?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2007, 04:34:55 PM »
Kalen B. -

There are (or used to be) "golf hotels" overlooking the 1st tee of a good number of golf courses in GB&I. Nairn & Royal Dornoch still  have them. Cruden Bay was developed as a railway destination "golf resort," with a large hotel adjacent (until it burnt down).  

DT