[Mike Hendren]

By the introduction of the alternate first green, the elimination of the gorse down the right side of the ninth and the elimination of the gorse behind the 14th green?   Elsewhere?

According to staff, the number of rounds there slightly exceeds those at Pacific Dunes, primarily becuase of the returning nines and central location, factors that would lead one to label this as their "resort" course.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't forget the closing of the death tee at the fourth on Pacific Dunes.

[Jeff Doerr]

My sense of seeing it in March was that the changes will keep the high handicapper in play a little more often, while the challenge remains for the strong player. It was really cleaned out on the right side of 13 also. The new green on one is uninspiring. Thankfully we played to the original.

[Pete_Pittock]

Also 5, 6, 8, 10, 13, 16, 17 for gorse removal, fairway widening. It became so popular they had to do something to get the rounds below 5 hours.

[PThomas]

to do something to get the rounds below 5 hours.

yikes!!!  as much as I love the course I wouldn't want to be out there for that long

[Eric Olsen]

I may be wrong, but I think they have periodically had to remove gorse from various holes on the course, both because of its pervasive growth into playing areas as well as to keep the pace flowing.  I agree that the new first green is uninspiring and hope we play the original in our 3 day, 54 hole per day extravaganza at the end of June  

[Ryan Crago]

I may be wrong, but I think they have periodically had to remove gorse from various holes on the course,

Just guessing here, but I imagine gorse removal would have been part of the environmental impact agreement, and it being a non-native species, there is most likely a continuing eradication plan of some sort... unfortunate perhaps from a golf perspective, but a small price to pay in the greater scheme of things.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

For what it's worth, there is an ungoing effort to save ALL of the Oregon Dunes with the removal of Gorse.

[rjsimper]

Mike,

I won't argue as to the merits or faults of removal of gorse around the 14th green (certainly it makes the hole visually less intimidating) but I believe the photo-essay in the pro shop shows that the gorse specifically on that hole was NOT originally there, but grew in over time.  Removing the gorse around the green therefore restores that green complex to the way Kidd originally intended it.

I do believe the alternate first green is dumbing it down SIGNIFICANTLY.

[Rich Goodale]

Tommy

Getting rid of patches of gorse is like getting rid of in-laws.  You can flame them, starve them, drown them, but they keep coming back, hardier than ever.  At the end of the day, you just lie back and learn to live with them......

[Eric Olsen]

I have played down the right side of the 9th hole many times.  It was the original driving range.  What gorse removal on 9 are you talking about?

[Tom_Doak]

The first hole was changed to reduce the number of tee shots into the parking lot ... it was originally designed to reward players who cut the corner off the tee, but that was long before they knew how much space the core resort buildings would eventually take up.

Apart from that, I think nearly every course in existence does what it can to improve operational efficiency over time, in their ongoing maintenance.

[Mike Hendren]

Apart from that, I think nearly every course in existence does what it can to improve operational efficiency over time, in their ongoing maintenance.

So you would not think twice if they removed the gorse on both sides of the 15th hole at Pacific Dunes?

I ask that because I love this hole (I'm told that it's not a favorite of some) and its uniqueness would thereby be ruined.  It's just a lovely, flat 550 yard stroll that provides a relatively quiet respite after the dramatic 13th and 14th and before the final stretch over rugged ground.  The way the gorse pinches the fairway works so nicely in tandem with the exceptional fairway bunkering on the second shot.  But for elevated green, there I was reminded of Scotland more than any other spot at the entire resort - and I greatly appreciated it.  Nice work.

Mike  

[Bob Jenkins]

I was told that not long before Bandon Dunes opened (maybe it was in "The Making of Bandon Dunes" as well, there was a gorse fire which wiped out most of the gorse on and near the course but that within a year or so it had all grown back. It is apparently a constant stuggle to keep it under control.

Rich is correct from what I hear.

[Kalen Braley]

My understanding of that fire was that it happened on the PacDunes site only.  There was a section documenting Mr. Kidd and crews effort from keeping the fire spreading over to Bandon Dunes.

I've heard a few conspiracy theories on the fire up to and including Mr. Doak himself starting the fire to make the gorse clearing much easier.  

[Matt MacIver]

On another thread Tiger said #17 at Sawgrass didn't belong as the 71st and/or 17th hole of a Championship and/or round.  

So did (the old) #1 at Bandon Dunes "belong" as the opener?  

Talk about a really, really hard hole, at least it was for us in the face of the summer wind, to a semi- blind green.  I dis-liked this hole immediately but forgave it by #6.  

I would rather they had not dumbed down the hole with the new green but transported the entire hole to somewhere else in the middle of the round -- say 8th, like Tiger and #17.  

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

I wasn't in town for the fire.  But it did make the clearing much easier, and I wish we'd cleared more of Old Macdonald while we were at it, because it will be a nasty job now.

David Kidd's crew made a great effort to keep the fire from spreading onto Bandon Dunes, not so much to save the gorse on any of their golf holes, but to keep the fire from continuing on to the lodge and resort.

[Garland Bayley]

I was told that not long before Bandon Dunes opened (maybe it was in "The Making of Bandon Dunes" as well, there was a gorse fire which wiped out most of the gorse on and near the course but that within a year or so it had all grown back. It is apparently a constant stuggle to keep it under control.

Rich is correct from what I hear.

No wonder!?!?

Fire is the triggering event for dormant gorse seeds to sprout and grow. You will have a lot of trouble eradicating gorse with fire.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

I wasn't in town for the fire.  But it did make the clearing much easier, and I wish we'd cleared more of Old Macdonald while we were at it, because it will be a nasty job now.

David Kidd's crew made a great effort to keep the fire from spreading onto Bandon Dunes, not so much to save the gorse on any of their golf holes, but to keep the fire from continuing on to the lodge and resort.

Well I suppose if you have a good alibi like that, then I guess you're off the hook..  

Concerning Old Macdonald, how much time will be added to the schedule to accomdate removing the gorse in the manner it was at BD?

[Tim Pitner]

On another thread Tiger said #17 at Sawgrass didn't belong as the 71st and/or 17th hole of a Championship and/or round.  

So did (the old) #1 at Bandon Dunes "belong" as the opener?  

Talk about a really, really hard hole, at least it was for us in the face of the summer wind, to a semi- blind green.  I dis-liked this hole immediately but forgave it by #6.  

I would rather they had not dumbed down the hole with the new green but transported the entire hole to somewhere else in the middle of the round -- say 8th, like Tiger and #17.  

Yes, the old #1 at Bandon Dunes did belong as the opener.  I always thought #1 was somewhat reminiscent of the 1st at Gleneagles Kings, where David Kidd's father worked.  Even if that weren't the case, I liked the fact that the course started with a hole that had an elevated green (rare these days) and could be quite difficult (also rare).  

Actually, downwind, from the green tees, the shot to avoid was hitting it too far, to the base of the hill, making the shot into the green blind.  Into the wind, it could be a bear.  If it wasn't a great 1st hole, I enjoyed it as a 19th (or a 37th) hole for settling bets.  Into the wind, it could play driver, long iron and was definitely a tester.  

I know some people complained that it was too hard for high handicappers for a 1st hole (see the thread asking why should 1st holes be easy), and it caused delays between 1 and 2.  I don't agree with any of that (although I'd like to check out how #1 flows to #2 when playing the tees to #2 behind the #1 green).  

I will take the resort at its word, though, that the new green was built in order to prevent players from slicing balls into the resort buildings.  I don't think it's an example of dumbing down, nor do I think that's the case with some of the gorse removal.  

[rjsimper]

Why would the difficulty of 1 cause delays between 1 and 2? Wouldn't just the opposite be true - the difficulty of 1 slows the play on that hole giving the group ahead more time to finish 2?  

[Pete Lavallee]

I think any slowdown at BD would be attributed to having a par 3 second; a definite routing flaw. This arrangement will always slow down play. Nice place to wait though.

[Tim Pitner]

Why would the difficulty of 1 cause delays between 1 and 2? Wouldn't just the opposite be true - the difficulty of 1 slows the play on that hole giving the group ahead more time to finish 2?  

Some would argue that the distance between #1 green and #2 tee was too great and, on top of that, you have the issue of playing a par 3 as the 2nd hole.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think any slowdown at BD would be attributed to having a par 3 second; a definite routing flaw. This arrangement will always slow down play. Nice place to wait though.

Pete,

That's an interesting point.

What other notable resort courses have a par 3 for the second hole ?

[rjsimper]

Why would the difficulty of 1 cause delays between 1 and 2? Wouldn't just the opposite be true - the difficulty of 1 slows the play on that hole giving the group ahead more time to finish 2?  

Some would argue that the distance between #1 green and #2 tee was too great and, on top of that, you have the issue of playing a par 3 as the 2nd hole.  

Yes, 2 being a par 3 (and a tough one at that) is the reason for the backup, not the 1st hole.  The distance from 1 green to 2 tee is a contributing, but very minor factor.  

2 is not an easy hole, and you have the added element of the broad chipping areas short/left as well as the collection area long that, for the uninitiated, lead to multiple shots (not quite climbing the bank).

I don't see any reason why they can't have 1-2 be something like 9-10 at Pac Dunes with Upper/Upper or Lower/Lower declared on the tee.  

The par 3 second hole is as notorious as the reachable par 5 1st or 2nd hole as a slow-down for play.  

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