[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

The signature Tour event is the Players.  The Tour spent I don't know how much to put a sub-air system throughout the course in order to promote F&F conditions, not to mention moving the event from March to May in hopes of weather that would also promote F&F conditions.

What does this say about the Tour's set up goals?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The signature Tour event is the Players.  

The Tour spent I don't know how much to put a sub-air system throughout the course in order to promote F&F conditions,

Do we know if that's the primary reason for introducing the sub-air system ?[/color]

not to mention moving the event from March to May in hopes of weather that would also promote F&F conditions.

I don't know that that's the primary reason for the change in dates.[/color]

What does this say about the Tour's set up goals?


To be honest, I don't know what it says.
I"m not prepared to draw a definitive, universal conclusion from such a small data base[/color]

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

Here's an article from the Tour's website about the course changes at Sawgrass.  F&F conditions were clearly what they had in mind in the renovation.  This doesn't prove that the F&F philosophy extends to all Tour events, but it's obviously something they wanted for their signature event.

http://www.pgatour.com/2007/tournaments/r011/05/05/players.renovation/index.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

It's an interesting article, although, I was disappointed to learn that they've flattened a number of greens, giving in to the "need for speed" syndrome.

As to whether the intent to introduce the ground game is a reality or just rhetoric, I'll have to watch and see.

It's interesting that they solicited opinions from the players rather than consult solely with Pete Dye.

[Phil Benedict]

They also added trees.

[Ken Moum]

Viewers want to see fireworks.

No doubt. But why does it have to be:

Viewers want to see Eagles and Birdies.

I'd argue that the highest ratings annually come from the events with the fewest birdies, and most "others."

I ask the following.

Does the PGA Tour want to alter their product?

I think they do.

Will REAL F&F alter their product ?

YES, and I think they're doing it because they can read a ratings book.

[Garland Bayley]

Certain things get old and boring. Therefore, at least for broadcast TV changes are made to stimulate interest. For example, LA Law was a hit with some interesting lawyering writing being done. When it got old and boring and viewership dropped they turned to sex to stimulate interest.

For years the viewership has been watching the PGA Tour beat up on nondescript courses with birdies and eagles (B&E). Viewership has waned. Now it would seem they are trying to stimulate Tom Paul and his ilk with F&F.

As far as Pat Mucci is concerned, he is beyond the point of stimulation. The nurse even has trouble waking him from his naps.
 

[Ed_Baker]

I sincerely hope that the tour is moving toward firm and fast, but I also hope that the powers that be don't allow what happened at Bayhill a few years ago. Remember that ? The greens were like concrete and through the green was a cranberry bog, it was impossible to play like that, very frustrating for the players.

[TEPaul]

Eddie:

That screwup at Bay Hill was Arnold Palmer not the Tour.

He had the course with rock hard greens and ultra soft approaches about four years ago that was so bad he apologized to the field and he swore to them that would never happen again. Then two years later he did it again just as bad.

If you haven't noticed Arnold has gotten sort of "vague" in recent years.  In his present state of mind our grandmothers would've called him "gaga".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

You'd feign sleep too, if you saw my old, ugly day nurse.

The good looking, statuesque night nurse has my undivided attention along with some other objects of my affection.

She's truely, FAST & FIRM

[Peter Pallotta]

A half-baked side-bar to an interesting discussion: this move towards F&F just might be another example of the impact/ influence that Tiger Woods is having on the Tour. I can't imagine there's many things more important to Tour brass than Tiger Woods. They've watched as Woods moved steadily towards a more controlled game (and once again left everyone else scrambling to imitate him); they've heard him talk about his dislike for target golf, and preference for courses that require imagination and shot-making; and they paid close attention when his staggeringly superior skill-set manifested itself most clearly at Hoylake, under F&F conditions. Like I say, this might be a half-baked idea, but I think Tiger Woods is singlehandedly teaching the Tour about how the game should be played.

Peter    

[TEPaul]

"I find these comments interesting."

Sean:

I don't find those comments of Patrick Mucci's interesting, I find them remarkably dumb and the product of a man who must be completely blind and totally unaware. What he just said is almost the diametric opposite of what I see has already happened.

The greens around here on courses that are into a firm and fast program, including my own club, are already firm and for those Northeast clubs that host PGA Tour events in the summer if they want to keep their greens firm (provided the weather allows it) in the heat and humidity of summer what they do is get into a comprehensive syringing program. But Pat Mucci is probably not even aware exactly what "syringing" is. A hint---it really isn't "irrigating" Patrick, you bumblehead.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I find these comments interesting."

Sean:

I don't find those comments of Patrick Mucci's interesting, I find them remarkably dumb and the product of a man who must be completely blind and totally unaware. What he just said is almost the diametric opposite of what I see has already happened.

This is from a man who needs a seeing eye guide dog to get him around a golf course.[/color]

The greens around here on courses that are into a firm and fast program, including my own club, are already firm and for those Northeast clubs that host PGA Tour events in the summer if they want to keep their greens firm (provided the weather allows it) in the heat and humidity of summer what they do is get into a comprehensive syringing program. But Pat Mucci is probably not even aware exactly what "syringing" is. A hint---it really isn't "irrigating" Patrick, you bumblehead.

By your own admission, you've stated that it takes years to get a golf course acclimated to F&F conditions.

And now, you're stating that it only takes a little syringing program to accomplish the same thing.

And, you're callling me a bumblehead ?  ?  ?[/color]
 

[TEPaul]

"By your own admission, you've stated that it takes years to get a golf course acclimated to F&F conditions.

Patrick:

I does take perhaps 2-5 years minimum to transition over the agronomy of a course to firm and fast that has been over-irrigated and over fertilized for years.

"And now, you're stating that it only takes a little syringing program to accomplish the same thing."

I never said anything like that. I said courses that are tour stops in the Northeast in the heat of summer can keep those courses firm and fast (limited irrigation) without really browning them out by syringing.

And to Sean Arble's point I never said syringing comprehensively is cheap. Comprehensive syringing is labor intensive and that's additional man-hours.

[Joe Hancock]

Another Peter Pallotta-type sidetrack:

We are very dry here in Michigan right now. The greens haven't seen irrigation yet (nothing has). We're still mowing at .145", and there is no footprinting or wilting. It's very dry, to the point of making cup changing a real chore. Oh, and by the way, even at these high heights of cut, the greens are probably rolling 10.5 or better. The fun really is in watching golfers learn to land shots 30 or more yards short of the greens.

My PGA member of a partner hates it, and makes sure I know it. The funny thing is he always tells me how amazing the greens are in August, after he plays somewhere else.

Joe

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