The dreaded 90 degree dogleg - Who is responsible?

[Mike Sweeney]

It is rare that the "90 degree dogleg" is actually 90 degrees, maybe 60 or 75 degrees. But this one at Minesceongo in Rockland County, NY certainly is:



The hole is simply crying out for a Par 3 and a Par 4 to replace the existing Par 5. It is a pretty good course on many holes, but he got jammed in a few spots. The last 4 holes are very good.

This was Eric Bergstal's first course alone after his construction work for Fazio at Hudson National (I believe), and I have read on here that Roy Case was the architect of Minesceongo? My guess is they got caught up in the 1980's syndrome of Par 72, 7000 yards 2 threes on the front and back and two fives on front and back. I do think we have to credit some of the architects on GCA for going back to the "old school" routings where the flow of the course was driven by the flow of the land. Thus you end up the only two fives at Merion being on the first four holes and the only two fives at Yale being on the last three holes.

Thus my suggestion would be to turn that par 5 above into a par 3 and a Par 4 which would then have the 10th hole return to the clubhouse.

Below in the far corner, Bergstal/Case? squeezed too many holes where the big X is located. Remove the Par 3 over there and it would open things up. Thus you end up with a Par 71 course.



Reality is I my architectural education consist of walking past The Ag School building at Cornell for two years on the way to the garage, but I think even Mike Young and Tom Doak might partner up with me on this one!

Questions are:

1. Does the above make sense?
2. Are there any good 90 degree doglegs out there?
3. Should and how should they be removed?
4. Are architects still handcuffed today by the 1980's Championship formula?

[wsmorrison]

Here is the infamous 9th at Philmont Country Club's North Course.  It is likely a Willie Park, Jr. design.  The course opened for play in 1924.

[Jeff Doerr]

Mike,

It looks like they could even go with a par 4 1/2 hole by teeing off behind the previous hole. They could do that simply and keep the short 5 for members, and make the new tee for tourney play at a par 71.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My mentor used to say there were only two instances where he didn't like sharp doglegs - one is where you have trees and the other is where you don't!

They cause safety problems, strategy problems, etc.  Looks like a terrible design for a golf hole.

I recall a similar hole in Newton, Iowa, where there were condos on the inside corner of the dogleg, keeping this from being the worst hole I have ever seen!

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have a soft spot in my head heart for these classics of design.  They are the golf equivalent of the '62 Mets.

How about the 12th at Penderbrook in Oakton, VA?  A 410-yard par 4, the landing zone was so close to the tee you could only hit iron.

That's because a huge lake on the left came into play on the second shot.  The entire second leg of this 90-degree dogleg-left hole was lake.

Sometimes you had to take more club on the second shot than on the first.

Sadly, I believe it was killed off because the townhouses behind the green were barraged.

Wayne, that hole the number-one stroke hole? It's like three consecutive par 3s.

[Brian Jones]

Here's a link (you'll have to cut and paste) to an aerial of two on the same course.  The hole on the right is the par 5 6th, on the left is the par 4 9th.  FWIW the par 5 2nd hole on the other course of this 36 hole club is a 90 degree (or close to it) dog leg as well.  Both courses designed by the same architect.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=taylors,+sc&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=34.912901,-82.351992&spn=0.004276,0.007145&z=17&iwloc=addr

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Just to put it in context and not to condone the design, but the second course was built 10 or so years after the first course.  The starting and finishing points were fixed so the constraints to route the second golf course resulted in this awkward hole.  In reality, technology has helped the hole.  If you can hit it 300+ you can clear the first turn and have a remote shot at the green with a properly shaped long approach.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wayne, that hole the number-one stroke hole?
It's like three consecutive par 3s.

Bad news!  It's even worse to play it than
to look at it.

Yes, but if you don't hit it straight, quite possibly it becomes that rare hole where "you've got to hit every club in the bag."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Brian's, Sweeney's, and Penderbrook's seem to point to some type of bizarre design "rule" for these holes: to present the proper test, the post-dogleg yardage must be longer than the pre-dogleg yardage.

But Wayne yours has its own unique test. The gentleness of the 90-degree curve means you can play it as a double, triple, or quadruple dogleg.

Sadly if you do hit it 300+ yards right down the middle you are deprived of that pleasure. It's enough to make one pity the scratch golfer.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I have never liked 90 degree holes because if they are actually measures as such they only provide for two type of plays:

1). If the turning point is sufficiently protected -- the players can only hit to a one given point in order to make their approaches. It simply provides for only a one-way oriented game plan from the tee.

2). If the turning point is NOT sufficiently protected -- then certain players will simply take huge risks to get as close to the target as possible and cut-off as much as they dare -- often time with impunity because the risks are not there and the rewards are clearly for the taking.

P.S. I believe Eric has learned a good bit since then - his work at Bayonne is indeed well done.

[mike_malone]

 Would you call #17 at Westchester 90 degrees ? If so, that is a 1925 example.

[Ally Mcintosh]

possibly the worst hole i've played was the old eighth at the citywest "championship" course in ireland, designed by christy o'connor jnr...

it was possibly a 95 to 100 degrees dogleg with thick trees tight on both sides, maybe 440 yards with the narrowest of fairways... you had to play two 3 irons and you were looking at landing the tee shot in a space no more than 20 by 20... cutting the corner needed more club and was an automatic run out of fairway so was a non-starter... ludicrous hole...

..gone now (not because it was a bad hole but because the most greedy developer in the country needed to find space for a second hotel on the site)

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

San Gabriel CC's #7 is nearly 90 degrees, and the inside is "protected" by an internal out of bounds.  While the outside of the bend there's bunker.

[Kalen Braley]

I too am not a big fan of these types of holes either for the reasons as already stated, especially with large trees on the inside corner of the hole.



That being said the only scenario I think it could work is if there was a natural marsh or other hazard existing on that inside corner, and then it could work as a risk/reward hole.

[Ken Moum]

I too am not a big fan of these types of holes either for the reasons as already stated, especially with large trees on the inside corner of the hole.

That being said the only scenario I think it could work is if there was a natural marsh or other hazard existing on that inside corner, and then it could work as a risk/reward hole.

Would Crooked Stick's 14th qualify as that risk/reward hole?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hi Mike,
There's one at the *Concord Resort that's somewhat interesting. Bombers can take it over the tree line on the right and possibly reach. The rest of us have a 50 or 60 yard deep landing area, where just getting the ball past the tree line offers the best approach.

*I think they closed the Monster course at the end of last  year's season to do a total renovation, re-opening in 2009.

[Kalen Braley]

kmourn,

Based on that illustration I would say yes if the trees closest to the tee boxes don't impair the tee shot too much.  Overall it appears to be a good "bite off as much as you can chew" layout with a safe layup option for the shorter hitters.

[Ken Moum]

kmourn,

Based on that illustration I would say yes if the trees closest to the tee boxes don't impair the tee shot too much.  Overall it appears to be a good "bite off as much as you can chew" layout with a safe layup option for the shorter hitters.

I believe that hole was where John D cut nearly all of the dogleg off on his way to winning the PGA Championship.

So the trees didn't impinge back then.

K

[Matt_Cohn]

The par-5 13th at OKC G+CC can be downright dangerous. It plays OK but in truth it is a bit awkward. Yes, the area inside the dogleg is played as OB.

[Jack_Marr]

possibly the worst hole i've played was the old eighth at the citywest "championship" course in ireland, designed by christy o'connor jnr...

it was possibly a 95 to 100 degrees dogleg with thick trees tight on both sides, maybe 440 yards with the narrowest of fairways... you had to play two 3 irons and you were looking at landing the tee shot in a space no more than 20 by 20... cutting the corner needed more club and was an automatic run out of fairway so was a non-starter... ludicrous hole...

..gone now (not because it was a bad hole but because the most greedy developer in the country needed to find space for a second hotel on the site)

[Powell Arms]

Below is 10 and 12 at Radnor Valley Country Club, labeled to show the pre renovation layout.  Two 90 degree doglegs amongst the first three holes on the back. And plenty of pro v1's in the backyard that sits at the inside of the dogleg on #12.  Those at the inside of #10 just hit parked cars.

Thankfully, 12 has been completely redone (by Ault Clark) and is now straight (and also is now #3).

[Paul Jones]

Here is a picture of the 18th hole at Oakbourne CC.  This hole has caused a lot of discussions:

[Willie_Dow]

How about an overview of the Hanover Golf Course at Dartmouth College.

[Pete Lavallee]

The 4th at Alllendale is a perfect 90* dogleg left,
the fact that the green slopes away fom the golfer
makes it a very intesting hole.

[David Panzarasa]

I am not sure what hole it is, but LACC North has a short par 4 that is I believe a 90 degree hole...actually a hole that I really do not like. I just looked it up again on google maps and msn map, and it really is a 90 degree hole, one which I did not care for at all. Quirky almost