[Peter Pallotta]

This is not a thread. It's an admission.

I played a firm and fast golf course yesterday, in very windy conditions.  

On a uphill 178 yard Par 3 with a sky-line green, into the wind, I hit a 4 iron as well as I could hit it, a high fade that landed about 5 yards short of the pin, bounced like a rubber ball, rolled all the way to the back and through the green and down into a grassy-type bunker, from where I made double bogie.

Then on a longish Par 4 with a wide opening at the elevated green, I had 210 yards left and hit a low drawing 2 iron-hybrid (again, as good as I can hit a ball) that landed just where I wanted it about 10 yards short and it bounded up the hill, through the short rough, through the fringe, through the green to the bunker behind, from where I made bogie (which I was proud of, cause it took a 10 ft bogie putt.)

And those were the highlights of my round!

So, for the next month or so, I would very much like slow and mushy conditions, the slower and mushier the better. Thank you.

Peter      

[JESII]

Booooo!

[TEPaul]

Peter:

The two examples you gave on those two holes is precisely why F&F is so cool, in my opinion. It forces a player to really engage with the ground itself and how it treats the golf ball. I use the analogy of auto racing where a good driver needs to feel the limit of adhesion of the tires on the road sort of in the seat of his pants. Would auto racing be as good if there was no limit of adhesion, if all tires gripped the road at any speed?

The real beauty of F&F ground conditions in golf to me means that players have to really FEEL the ground and what the ball will do on it in both bounce and rollout. This is such a remarkable alternative (option), I think, to just always being able to fly a golf ball all the way to a specific spot and having it stop dead.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES
Yes, guilty as charged.  I can only ask for your compassion and understanding. But come to think of it (and since I'm admitting everything) I'd like no wind either. Thank you.

TE
You're right - and your racing analogy really is spot on. And when I'm at my best (as a person and a golfer), I enjoy the extra thinking and shotmaking that F&F demands. But yesterday I was reminded that I'm not often at my best (as a person) and that I'm simply not good enough (as a golfer) to handle the challenge.

But: I hope to get better at both...which is why the F&F ethos appeals to me.

Peter    

[A.G._Crockett]

Anybody who really likes F&F should come to Georgia RIGHT NOW!  We are baked, and with no rain of any consequence in the forecast.  I have never seen it like this in mid-May, and only rarely by August.  The humidity is incredibly low, even, so not even any afternoon thunderstorms.  What you saw at The Masters has actually intensified.

I played Great Waters on Sunday, and IT was F&F!  I mean, the name of the place has water in it, for crying out loud!  It was still bright green, but balls are bouncing all over the place, running through greens, etc.

Now if you REALLY want to see those conditions, come on down and play Long Shadow.  It is designed to play that way, and the colors look like what we see on the British Open every year.  It is just a thrilling experience in every respect.  You owe it to yourself...

[TEPaul]

"TE
You're right - and your racing analogy really is spot on. And when I'm at my best (as a person and a golfer), I enjoy the extra thinking and shotmaking that F&F demands. But yesterday I was reminded that I'm not often at my best (as a person) and that I'm simply not good enough (as a golfer) to handle the challenge.

But: I hope to get better at both...which is why the F&F ethos appeals to me."

Peter:

I hate to do this to you, but somehow these discussions on F&F and such always tend to come back to Behr's overall philosophy, at least in my mind.

In this particular case, the basic common denominator is that "Nature" should be allowed to maintain its important part in golf and architecture. Ground and its firmness (or lack of it) is a factor or Nature herself, and it is not for "Man" (a golfer, an architect or a superintendent) to attempt to completely dominate it by making it do something it does not naturally do.

The fact that Man NOW CAN do this is somewhat beside the point of course.

This is why Behr wrote much of what he did when he did. He could see as well as anyone that Man had finally come to be capable of doing this (dominating so many aspects of Nature unlike his forebears who did not have the ability to dominate Nature in all these various ways).

And so Behr was recommending that Man realize in golf and architecture that he should STOP attemtping to dominate all aspects of Nature and allow Nature to be that larger part of the game and its playing fields over which Man once did not have such complete control and such complete domination.

 

[Michael Christensen]

u mention those 2 shots, but how much run did you get on your drive??  for me that is the main benefit of F&F...hitting a low bullet and seeing it run out.....also love to down club and hit 20 to 30 yards short of the green and see it run up....need open fronts to the green for that!  

a full carry (rough) par-3 with front pin with the wind is an impossible shot...hit it on the green anywhere and two putt

[ChipRoyce]

Here in Austin Texas, we play firm and fast pretty much year round.

Although we have Champions Bermuda greens, we always have to conserve water and as a result, the greens barely leave pitch marks.

We don't water the rough often, fairways and greens are usually border between green and a light touch of brown / tan and I tell you its a fantastic golfing experience.

Our greens roll true and not too much grain. Fairways drain nicely and are not too firm and allow one to take a nice divot.

[Matt Vandelac]

As an owner/operator of a club working to maintain firm and fast conditions, I can tell you our experience so far has been interesting.  While firm fairways are fine with the masses, we have to be careful to not allow the greens to become too hard and start making the average guy too frustrated, so it's a delicate balance. All the education in the world about how cool it is to create shots different than throwing darts doesn't matter to the masses, IMHO; especially if it's rock hard.  I think a huge factor in this frustration is the golf ball.  It makes a huge different here if you play a ball that will spin.  Or course it helps if you have some skill to hit down on a shot, but a softer ball can help the weakest player hitting long iron to putting (and no, I'm not shilling for a ball company!).
I'm all for firm and fast, but when it's keeping folks from returning it 's a problem.    

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

Please don't come visit me right now. My greens are powder dry (literally!) and you need to land 8 irons at least 15 yards short of the greens.

Of course, the upside of this is the grass is totally bulletproof, and I hope my first fungicide application will be put off until July or August at least.

Joe

p.s. I'm kidding....you, of all people, would make my day if you came to visit! In fact...free bottled water to drink if you show up.....

[Doug Ralston]

Wow!

I played a 'soft and green' course just a week ago, and was it frustrating.

I hit a 9-iron very high from 111yd and it landed right next to the pin, rolled back 3 inches, and stopped. And I was So-oo hoping to roll off the back into the lake, too!

Terrible experience, I admit. But what can you do; can't have 'hard and dry' everywhere [Faldo's description, not mine].

Doug

PS: Deserved retribution for your shutting down the important thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=29369 without a single decent response. I admit I was disappointed, but I cannot MAKE architects actually answer these obvious questions.  

[Peter Pallotta]

TE - I'm glad you brought up Behr. All kidding aside, to me golf is a game/sport unlike any other because "the idea" of what you're doing out there is a large part of the experience. The idea of participating in and interacting with nature is a powerful one, and Behr's ideas about naturalism in design and about nature dictating the playing conditions are very appealing to me (i.e. the whole person), even if sometimes the golfer in me is frustrated and discouraged about playing so poorly in those conditions.

Matt - you raise a good and relevant point, especially coming from an owner-operator. I played in the late afternoon yesterday, and the wind had been blowing hard all day. I'm guessing the greens had 'dried out' and gotten hard by the time I teed off. I'm an average golfer (who played worse than average yesterday as it was only my second round in about a year, since the birth of our son). Like the golfers you mention (and that you rely on for your course's success), it wasn't the firm fairways that did me in, it was those greens; I was frustrated by them. If there's a difference (and maybe there's not), it's that I hope to get better and look forward to handling those conditions, mostly for the reasons I mentioned above.

Joe - Thanks. I'll be over my cowardly phase in about a month, and ready to play your course.  I really do hope to get the chance to come to Michigan and play a round with you soon; the free bottled water is just the icing on the cake.

Doug - I hope I haven't done anything that deserves retribution, but I can't think you were referring to me. I have no power to shut down anything, and didn't even participate in the thread you've provided a link for. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Peter  
       

[Doug Ralston]

Peter;

Sorry. No, I was not referring to you. I am simply upset about a certain attitude I perceive toward even my most GCA serious comments and questions.

The one I referred to is on an issue of obvious architectural importance, and I myself had resisted the temptation to start that very discussion, feeling myself too much of a dillitant to have the 'gravitas' to begin that thread. But when someone else did start it, I fealt free to ask the questions.

I should not have intruded my disappointment into your thread though. Sorry again. The comment; an attempted parody of the 'firm and fast' obsession that also seems part of the same groupthink here [to me], was probably really deserving of it's own thread. Or not.

BTW, I just played a nice F & F course [Windy Knoll in Dayton, OH], and quite enjoyed it. I am NOT opposed to F & F, and more than sandy hills or oceanside courses. I simply do not think that is all there should be, or even that it is 'best'. I think many ideas, well executed, are worthy.

Doug

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