[TEPaul]

It seems to me some really dedicated firm and fast maintenance and setup practices have been happening on tour more and more in the last few years. I see some pretty ideal green surface firmness but most interesting some real firmness and rollout "through the green".

This is a changed approach in my opinion. I'm surprised it's never been mentioned on a thread on this website that I know of. The players are mentioning it more and more and seem to both praise it and encourage it. They mention it by name. I hope both they and the commentators will begin to mention it's happening both on the green surfaces and "through the green".

Is golf generally becoming aware of this? Is golf watching this carefully? Will golf begin to emulate it more prevalently?

[TEPaul]

However, get ready for next week if the TPC Sawgrass is really firm and fast through the green because I think they've also concentrated on narrowing those fairways and growing some pretty penal rough.

My guess is this narrowing and penal rough will be panned by the players if the course is firm and fast "through the green".

One wonders if the set up people are ever going to figure out how to just let them play with some strategic width and less penal rough. Kapulua sure has given them that hint in the last few years but the set up people don't appear to be all that swift on the uptake.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

For decades the PGA Tour wanted a birdie and eagle fest.

That's entertainment, thus, the golf courses were set up to produce lots of scoring.

I don't know that the PGA Tour has made a conscious decision to go to F&F.

Remember, The Masters is not a part of the PGA Tour.

[Phil McDade]

Are scores relative to par higher than they have been in recent years? Seems that way. Part of it may be the par 70 switch from par 72 courses, but I wonder if F/F accounts for at least some of this? Can't be weather alone...

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, for those guys what effects their scores the most is firmer green surfaces where they can't stick it or where they certainly can't suck the ball back. They simply don't have as much control with their approach shots and that's going to show in scoring.

Of course more of the Tour stops are getting into firm and fast setups---when have you seen the pros talk about it before the last year or so?

Apparently most TV viewers aren't even noticing. For instance Pat Mucci, seems to think it was just at ANGC for the Master which obviously isn't part of the PGA TOUR. But maybe he has an excuse---maybe he doesn't watch the PGA Tour on a weekly basis. It seems less do than they used to. Will these kinds of F&F setups make the weekly Tour more interesting to watch?

[BCrosby]

I don't think there has been a change in setup policy.

Most spring events are played in the SE. It has been an exceptionally dry and cool spring in the SE.

I hope that the powers that be are paying attention, however. Ultimately contour and firm conditions are the only things that put pressure on the pro game without mucking up the architecture.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"I don't think there has been a change in setup policy."

Bob:

You're on---you got a bet there.

This subject has definitely been filtering into golf in the last few years and it sure looks to me like the Tour and their setup people are onto it too. Weather and seasonal conditions are just one part of it. Even with the season and weather cooperating maintenance has to go along with this and it appears they have been much more than the past.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I hope you are right. It would be good to see f&f as an explicit  setup goal.

Partly because it is a good goal in and of itself. But also because of the unintended consequences. I think that once you go f&f, a lot of interesting things will happen with green speeds and fw widths.

At least that is my hope.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

There is no question at all that TPC Sawgrass is now into the F&F philosophy. They've mentioned this a whole lot recently and you'll be hearing a lot about it from them, from the players and others next week (that is if it doesn't rain too much and it gets taken out playability-wise). The only problem is they've apparently thrown in some fairway narrowing and higher rough too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Apparently most TV viewers aren't even noticing.

Which answers your last question, which I've highlighted in red.[/color]

For instance Pat Mucci, seems to think it was just at ANGC for the Master which obviously isn't part of the PGA TOUR.

But maybe he has an excuse---maybe he doesn't watch the PGA Tour on a weekly basis.

You're correct, I don't watch the PGA Tour on TV unless I've got nothing else to do..

And, as Bob said, in the SE it's been dry all year.

And, the strongest argument against your case is the time it takes to get a golf course to arrive at F&F conditions, without losing it along the way, while keeping your membership happy.

By your own words it takes years to achieve consistent F&F.

Hence, I doubt that the courses being played embarked upon F&F conditions a year or three ago.[/color]

It seems less do than they used to.

Will these kinds of F&F setups make the weekly Tour more interesting to watch ?


I don't think your premise is correct, but, let's assume that it is.  Do you think the sponsors and the people who proclaim,
"These guys are good" will embrace bogies and car wrecks ?

Do I think a cadre of like minded individuals who frequent GCA.com will ?   Yes.[/color]

[TEPaul]

It is truly amazing to me how some on this website, such as Pat Mucci who seems to philosphically support firm and fast conditions are so good at hoisting themselves on their own petard when it comes to promoting and advancing the issue of firm and fast even as it continues to happen more and more.

Pat is the type who stands there screaming that the troops should muster perhaps to prepare for battle (or perhaps even just to muster) apparently not even noticing that they already have mustered for battle and are already out on the field fighting the good fight.  

If any of those troops actually asked Pat why he's still standing there yelling about mustering and why he's not out there fighting the good fight with them he's liable to respond he's still standing there yelling albeit left behind because the point he's making is one of mustering only.  

[Ted Kramer]

I have heard the term, "fast and firm" mentioned quite a bit during golf telecasts recently. I too feel like a change in philosophy seems to be in the air. The Players could be a great chance to show off the fun and strategic merits of fast and firm if the fairways aren't ridiculously narrow. Unfortunately my guess is that the playing corridors will be too narrow for fast and firm to really be appreciated, but my feeling is that the Tour is moving in the right direction. I'm very excited for The Players.  

-Ted

[Adam Clayman]

The brown patina has been mentioned many times on this site.
 From my perspective it was an attempt to toughen the softer designs these guys end up playing on a week in week out basis.

Back when not embarassing the pros was prevalent(i.e. sandless bunkers) it was odd because we average golfers who were aware of the dichotomy saw through the guise and realized if these guys were so good, why shouldn't they be asked to hit the shots we are faced with. i.e. poorer conditions
 
Now, we seem to have situations where they have no problem with trying to get the most out of these guys(tougher conditions) but there are still areas where the old modus of not embarrassing is still prevalent.

The watching public could see browned out conditions every week and they would still not have a clue what constitutes good or bad conditioning.
Look at the 04 U.S. Open and this last Open Championship. Respected journalist called the grass dead and that was just not the case.

The Augusta Syndrome is so firmly implanted into the brains of so many, I fear it's a losing battle to convince anyone that real F&F conditions are an ideal.

[Gary Slatter]

F&F is the natural way to prevent the modern Tour player from shooting 240. They are very good.

I also hope it is deliberate but this major drought may be the real cause.  Hopefully there is no rain at TPC.

Adam: I agree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It is truly amazing to me how some on this website, such as Pat Mucci who seems to philosphically support firm and fast conditions are so good at hoisting themselves on their own petard when it comes to promoting and advancing the issue of firm and fast even as it continues to happen more and more.

You're misguided.

I support the movement, at the local and championship level, to F&F, I just don't endorse your premise that the PGA Tour has made a deliberate effort in that direction.  Especially when many clubs hosting PGA Tour events are member clubs.[/color]

Pat is the type who stands there screaming that the troops should muster perhaps to prepare for battle (or perhaps even just to muster) apparently not even noticing that they already have mustered for battle and are already out on the field fighting the good fight.  

I don't share your belief that the tour has made a policy decision that they want all tournament courses prepared for  F&F conditions.

To date, in 2007, I think weather may be the most influencial factor and not policy decisions.[/color]

If any of those troops actually asked Pat why he's still standing there yelling about mustering and why he's not out there fighting the good fight with them he's liable to respond he's still standing there yelling albeit left behind because the point he's making is one of mustering only.  

As you know, I've promoted F&F at a number of courses where I have some influence, and at others, where I have no influence.

But, that doesn't mean that the PGA Tour has made a policy decision that all courses should be prepared F&F, especially when the PGA Tour is only has control of the golf course for a limited time frame.[/color]

[Doug Siebert]

OK, maybe I'm losing it, but when I was flipping channels over to the golf today for a few minutes I saw something saying "Firm, Fast and Fair" that appeared to have the PGA Tour's logo on it.  It was on the screen pretty fast just when I switched the channel over and I think they were talking about an upcoming tournament (maybe the TPC)

Like I said, maybe I'm losing it, but did anyone else see that?  And if they did, did it really have anything to do with the PGA Tour?  Because if so, it would be a pretty interesting topic for discussion on GCA...

[TEPaul]

"Like I said, maybe I'm losing it, but did anyone else see that?  And if they did, did it really have anything to do with the PGA Tour?  Because if so, it would be a pretty interesting topic for discussion on GCA..."

Doug:

I saw that too.

This is pretty ironic really. This site is into firm and fast bigtime---now the PGA Tour is getting into it, producing it on TV most every week and mentioning it etc and this site doesn't even notice that they're talking about it and producing it in their setups.

Pat Mucci says it must be the weather and even if it is he doesn't believe the premise

Talk about BLIND! And he's the guy who's always accusing memberships of being obtuse?!

[Willie_Dow]

Tom:  I notice that there seems to be a greater emphasis on aerification than in previous years.  Doesn't this indicate that many courses are tending toward F&F growth ?  There also seems to be a bigger inventory of sand out there waiting to be spread around.

Perhaps the Tour is following the current trend.

[TEPaul]

Willie:

That's exactly right. I went to a regional USGA agronomy conference recently and the big recommendation this year is more and frequent aeration. And then there's this new phenomenon of lightly and frequently sand top dressing approaches and whole fairways. The latter technique ain't cheap though, but after a while the dividends in F&F playability seem to be really obvious.

Frankly, in this whole area and philosophy of F&F and the Ideal Maintenance Meld the most important element and area, and BY FAR, is the firmness of the approaches.

It's way more important than fairway tee shot LZs or actually even green surfaces for some courses and events. The effectiveness and function of approaches to allow the ball to bounce and roll through them is basically the lynchpin to begin to bring the aerial game option and the ground game option into some form of equilbrium or balance. And the extent most golf courses can bring those two basic strategic options into a form equilibrium or balance is the extent they can really showcase IN PLAY all their architectural elements.

[tlavin]

I think there has been a conscious decision to toughen up all of the Tour events.  Sometimes this is manifested in F&F, but that is often dictated more by meteorolgy than by design.  The other noticeable change is a move toward deeper rough on regular tour stops.  The days of very light rough appears to be on the wane.  I think this is the natural evolution of the reaction to the technology that was rendering a lot of courses obsolete for the tour players.  I'm not sure what difference it's making in the long run on scoring, but I always appreciate courses being made difficult for the touring professionals.

[TEPaul]

Terry:

As we are seeing week after week on tour (when weather conditions allow it) really FIRM greens is the single most effective mechanism to control low scoring on the tour pro level, and this can be very easily done without penal rough, although the TOUR and others do not seem that willing, at this point, to forego the high and penal rough mechanism to influence scoring.

The reason for the latter is probably pretty obvious---eg rainfall can take out firm green surfaces very quickly but a quick change in weather conditions (rain) doesn't much effect the penal nature of high rough.

[Phil Benedict]

I was taking a short-game lesson a couple of years ago with a pro who occasionally qualifies for a Tour event.  I said something about how Tiger and Phil hit the majority of their shots around the green with a lob wedge.  He said that was because the greens are so firm in the typical tour setup.

With players hitting the ball longer and higher, I think the Tour wants firm greens to be the norm to keep winning scores in the -10 area, which seems to be their objective in the typical weekly event, although perhaps not for the Players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

From what little I watched of yesterday's final round, the greens didn't appear that firm.

When the PGA Tour comes north in the summer, how many clubs are going to be willing to risk losing their greens in attempting to get them firm and fast in July and August when temperatures and humidity soar ?

In the spring in the northeast, I don't see how clubs can get their greens firm and fast.

As of May 7th, how many greens in the northeast are fast & firm and putting well  ?

Mother Nature is difficult to overcome.
When clubs take extreme methods to counter her influence, they put their greens at risk.

Transitioning to F&F conditions, weather permitting, is a long term process, a process that takes understanding and committment.

It's not something that a club can just jump in and out of.

As tree removal has gradually begun to take hold, I think the trend toward F&F will begin to take hold, but, it will take time, understanding, funds and committment.

If the PGA Tour would embrace tree removal, and not tree introduction, AND, F&F, the viewing audience, those who have influence at golf clubs, would begin to give the trend added momentum.  TV is a powerful influence.

A club that's maintained lush, green conditions, shouldn't go to the extreme and try to attain F&F in the next few weeks.
It's a long process, not a quick fix.

[Phil Benedict]

Pat,

I don't think the Tour is seeking US Open type firmness, but they don't want dartboards either.  With 40+ events it's going to be hit-and-miss on a week-to-week basis.  The greens may have been a little bit soft yesterday because of the rain the day before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I would ask you, TEPaul and others to consider the following.

What was one of the biggest objections to the changes on the back nine at ANGC, from many on this board ?

My recollection is that some, if not many, indicated that it would reduce, if not remove, the birdie and eagle opportunities that the viewing public had fallen in love with.

I maintain the following.

The PGA Tour needs TV.
TV needs advertisers.
TV needs viewers.
Viewers want to see fireworks.
Viewers want to see Eagles and Birdies.
Golf on TV is entertainment.

I ask the following.

Does the PGA Tour want to alter their product ?

Will REAL F&F alter their product ?

Caveat:

Remove ANGC and The Masters from the exercise as they're not part of the PGA TOUR and have a unique situation as well as a unique product.

If the answer to # 1 is NO, why would they trend toward F&F ?

If the answer to # 1 is YES, are the networks and advertisers firmly behind them ?

GCA.com is a small, relatively elitist group and I'm not sure that the product we identify and align ourselves with is the same product that the majority of the viewing public align themselves with.

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