Do the last holes need to be tough ?

[mike_malone]

I often hear people say they love our course ,but the last few holes are a weak finish.In fact on a recent Golfweb course review someone said they were "lousy".
   My opinion is that they are beautiful.The last 2---(par 5's for white tees #18 par4 from blue tee) entice the longer drivers to position themselves to go for the  green in two.This boldness can lead to bogey or worse.
   I would call them scoring holes---you can make birdie easier than on the  holes that precede them but you can screw up by being bold.
    It seems to me that a bias exists that says finishing holes should be hard.This means to me--hard to make birdie.
     Why?

   (Since the course was opened in 1926 the designer could only do so much with the property.The same guy ended Huntingdon Valley with two "hard" holes.)

[Bob_Farrell]

Mayday:

What's your course?

BF

[A_Clay_Man]

My home course finishes with two of the hardest holes on the course. Not only are 17 and 18 tough but 8 and 9 are too. Since the course has switched nines recently it's all kind of the same. What makes them really hard is that all four holes go in the same direction, so when the wind is howling out of the west, making par often feels like birdie.

It's my opinion that the course would be better routed if they had built the clubhouse elsewhere. Then the finisher would be a relatively easy par 5 with tons of risk reward to make things exciting. The change would also have the starting hole as a relatively short par four, both with water left and bunkers right. This symetry I think would've worked well. The change would also have made for less of a walk to a couple of the holes and would've could've and should've been done to make it a better walk.

[mike_malone]

BF
  Rolling Green
 A Clay Man
    I guess you sort of agree with me.
   I know that many of our older members like the idea that they can end their round with a birdie chance.
     I watched the last few holes being played by the semifinalists in our club championship.There were 2 bogies,one par and one birdie made on the short #17.I think this is because you try to force your drive through a 15 yd.opening to maybe leave 180 yds. to green instead of laying back and leaving 220+ with slight dogleg.
 This makes for more fun than having to produce your best shot just to avoid disaster.
   The classic designer's could not move tons of earth so the course could have been different,but "easy" holes are not bad

[A.G._Crockett]

Am I imagining it, or do most courses (modern) end with a very tough par four or a par five?  I would assume that this is a strategy of design meant to leave the golfer with a mental snapshot of an impressive hole.

Everyone knows of older courses (several Ross courses most notably) which end with par threes.  I don't know of any recent designs that end that way.  Does anyone else?

Also, I've noticed that many courses seem to have relatively difficult finishing holes handicapped somewhat higher than it seems they should.  I assume that this is done to limit the number of strokes being given on 18 for betting/match purposes.  I don't have any scientific evidence for this--just an impression.  Who sets the handicapping for a course?  I don't think that it is the architect, and it is on scorecards well before they have been sloped, etc.

[Dave_Miller]

Mayday:

Rolling Green is a fabulous course.  All 18 holes.  There is a great blend of holes there.

Why would anyone knock that course because they think 18 is easy.  You still got to hit it twice (or maybe even 3 times) and you still got to make the putts.

A pox on anyone who denigrates Rolling Green in this manner.  

The game is 18 holes and the last time I checked Rolling Green had 18 terrific ones.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

I think that the last few holes should bring PRESSURE to the golfers game, making it difficult to "limp in", irrespective of medal or match play.

It is yet another TEST in golf,
knowing you have a good round going, but having to FINISH the golf course.  This creates pressure, and nothing adds to it like competitive finishing holes

Being able to put it on "cruise control" for the last few holes is an inherent design weakness.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Joel_Stewart]

Steve Wynn wanted Shadow Creek to have a climatic finish and that has always been etched in my mind.  If the course has balance then it doesn't bother me.

My course (Olympic) has a really great short par 4 on the Lake course and a terrible par 4 Driver-SW on the Ocean course which I think about every time I play it.

[Craig_Rokke]

It's been too many years for me  to specifically remember Rolling Green's finishers, but if they are similar to #18 at H. Valley, lucky for you. I agree with Mucci that they should put pressure on your game. I like a challenging finisher, and one that gives multiple ways to play the hole.

The #18's at Huntingdon Valley and the Cascades are both uphill to an extent. Is Rolling Green's also?

[wsmorrison]

One ought to consider that early golf courses were designed with match play in mind.  The final holes were often meant to provide high drama in a match play finish where par was not important.  Recovery shots and "go or not go" as TEP likes to call it (in other words, risk vs. reward) were paramount to the design intent.

Today, relationship to par (gross or net score) plays a much more important role in the minds of players and the tournament structures, resulting in changing demands on the architects and therefore the design intents as well.

As long as there is strategy, shot demands, and a need for thoughtful play, I don't see any weakness to having a finish where lots of different results can happen, including birdies.  As long as the overall 18 has variety and spice, it is bound to be a fine course.  

In the modern game, on modern courses, my ideal concept without regard to balance, topography, routing, and the like is for the 17th hole to be a scoring hole (a last chance to make a move) and the 18th hole be a difficult hole where there is pressure on the leader to retain his lead and difficulty for the trailing player(s) to catch or pass the leader resulting in a more dramatic finishing stretch; hero time!  

[wsmorrison]

Dave,

I have to agree with you about Rolling Green and your thoughts on our 18th.  Looking forward to our Boston trip in 2 weeks!  All the best,
Wayne

[Steve Lapper]

Should they be easy??

Discuss among yourselves!!!

Me think not

[mike_malone]

      Pat
   The odd thing on our course is that people think the last 3 holes are easy and let up just a little.Then they lose it.
  It just so happens that 13-14-15 are our amen corner.Then it eases up a bit.Flynn seemed to go for variety within courses and among courses.So,Huntingdon Valley finishes with 2 tough holes to birdie and we do not.
  When you say your game should be pressured,is  it ok that the pressure is to "try to make birdie but you introduce bogey "or does it have to be"if you do not hit a great shot you are screwed"
     I guess my whole point in this thread is that i prefer the balance that Joel Stewart talked about and the "pressure to make par " holes do not have to be the last holes.The last holes can be the "pressure to make birdie" holes.

  Craig Rokke
     The interesting thing about your question as to whether or #18 is like  H.V.'s is whether ours is a par 5 or 4.
  As times have changed this 480 hole( downhill  on the teeshot but uphill to the green)hole can now be a par 4,so all of sudden it becomes tough to get home in 2 even if you hit the ball in the middle of the fairway,but if it is a par 5 then it becomes easy to par.What confuses me is that the hole is not any different just the par.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

I think that there ought to be more pressure to make par than to make birdie, but that's just my idea of stronger finishing holes.

[Paul Turner]

Two courses with great finishing holes, St Andrews and Lytham have a chain of great par 4s.  Why doesn't anyone do this anymore?  We seem obsessed with "par" variety!

[Will E]

Shinnecock, TPC Sawgrass (and West), Whistling Straits all have the type of finish that I'd want on my course.
A par five that will give you a good shot a birdie, a par three that should scare you to death and finally a par four that you have to hit a couple of solid shots on to par.
I'd want the last holes of the course to be the ones that have the best chance of exposing one's game under pressure. I also enjoy the ability to give the player a chance to take a risk and make up a stroke.

Pat,
I really like the men's clubs finish, I'd rather see it as 17, 18, then 16. Maybe you can get them to cart the players on that routing at next year's Travis. As the SR AM champ, you'll even be able to get them to change 12. sorry, I know that topic is off limits.

[Steve Lang]

,

I've enjoyed the closing 3 holes at almost all courses while playing for fun, and very few while playing in competitions...  
This lead me to the conceptualization that the closers should demand strategy and execution and not be unreasonably difficult by a forced or abnormal architectural feature.

In competitions the mental side is usually so stressed at the end of a round that strategy goes quickly to either the golfer's heart or mind and then the shot execution takes center stage.  I've had the thought, "I don't deserve to be flight winner if I can't make this shot..."  I think it goes beyond the risk/reward equation... if the hole doesn't force itself upon you.

In playful mode, one is more likely to risk all and go on a path less travelled... for braggin or story telling rights, or my favorite saying, "I didn't come all the way to Southern Pines to lay up!"  At TOC, on 17 after confidently playing the blind tee shot over the buildings and almost birdying the infamous Road hole, mind was absent on 18, perhaps the widest closing fairway in the world, I took it straight at the green and sliced it 6 inches OB under the fence... for 3 off the tee I aimed left at the R&A... then 8 iron from 135yds to 4 feet, one putt for a 5 and rousing ovation from the crowd... priceless... to close at 77.  

At The Woodlands CC I type the closers as follows:
TPC: 3, 4, 4 - reasonable, challenging, better execute
Oaks: 5, 4, 4 - easy, difficult, better execute
Old Pines: 4, 3, 4 - execute, challenging, execute
Revised Pines: 5, 3, 4 - challenging, execute, better execute
Palmer Old Course 4, 5, 4- reasonable, execute, execute
Player - easy, execute, difficult


What are you playing for ?

[golfetc]

I think the final holes should be good holes, not necessarily tough.  The final hole in particular should offer the ultimate risk reward.  Those needing par to win should be able to make par with good shots, those needing birdie should be able to bite off a little more to win thier match.  A par 5 offers the most options here, but a drive over water, angled to make give you a choice of how much to bite off, or a unique green with greenside trouble can all accomplish this.  

[Mark_Fine]

One thing is for sure, the last few holes need to be "very good" and in my opinion "inspiring".  A mediocre finish doesn't cut it.  If your definition of good is tough, so be it.  

Golf is like other things in life and there are few things that any of us do where we like them to end on a weak or uninspiring note  

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shooter,

The finish at GCGC certainly seems different, but somehow it works.

# 18 is a hard hole to birdie or par, especially with the prevailing wind in your face, the carry over water, the DEEP bunkers, slope of the green, and SPECTATORS.

# 17 is on the easy side of a par 5, but can present problems.

# 16 is a good par 4, though I would like to see the tee side bunkers moved out about 20-30 yards since there is no room to move the tee back.  I'd also like to see the pond restored to bunkering.  Even though it is artificial, environmentalists might still object.

Wind is a strong factor when playing these last three holes, and it's not so easy to "limp in".

[Will E]

Pat,
I'm sending you to Dr.Katz. Hopefully he'll be of more help to you than he was to me. SPECTATORS are the most difficult hazard on any course.

[Slag Bandoon]

  Heron Lakes, Great Blue course in Portland has a tough finishing string with water right and/or short that can psyche out a player into thinking he's got to score well before that run utterly destroys a good round.  It's sometimes difficult not to think of them when getting an easy 8 on the 12th.  It makes for an interesting round and it's good to be challenged at the end when we are weary.  

  Yet, North Berwick West is about the easiest par 4, but by no means dull, and is very memorable and evocative.  

  So, interesting is more important than hard or easy.