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John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2007, 03:43:06 PM »
Would it make for an awkard routing if you had to skip the Dell Hole?  Did you even play the extra hole?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2007, 04:48:28 PM »
I'd love to see that drop shot hole at Erin Hills.

The mother of all drop shot par 3s has got be number 9 at Lake Chabot.  The green is over 100 feet below the tee box.  While the yardage says its 160 something, usually just plays as a wedge.  On a foggy day, it would be hitting a shot in oblivion.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2007, 05:12:01 PM »
Played Erin Hills last October. Like it a great deal. Here's what I wrote in The Daily Southtown (a competitor of the Tribune, incidentally):

   The Grill Room - Thursday, October 19

   ERIN, Wis. -- There are two words Cog Hill Golf & Country Club owner Frank Jemsek should worry about hearing while hoping the United States Golf Association someday favors his Dubsdread course with a U.S. Open.
   They are not Olympia Fields.
   Nor are they Whistling Straits.
   The two words are Erin Hills.
   When the USGA finally brings the U.S. Open back to the Midwest -- it's booked elsewhere through 2013 -- Erin Hills, a spectacular new course in this sleepy rural hamlet 35 miles northwest of Milwaukee, has a remarkably good chance to get it.
   How good? Mike Davis, who runs the Open for the USGA, has visited four times. On the grounds the first time after work had barely begun, he didn't return a second, third and fourth time to have a bratwurst.
   Erin Hills is more than that good. Opened Aug. 1, it is instantly one of the great courses in the world. It is also a throwback, a course many will find too quirky, thinking too many of the hazards -- the earth rolling and heaving, leftovers of the last remnant of the Ice Age -- were either placed incorrectly or should have been bulldozed.
   That is both the charm and challenge of Erin Hills. This isn't another cookie-cutter course with a pleasant routing and a copying machine's originality. This is golf course architecture the way it was done in the '70s. The 1870s. A tee here. A bunker there, where it will do grievous harm to the scorecard. A fairway looking like an unmade bedspread running to the green over there, around the hillock. Aim at the distant steeple to find the flagstick. If there's no steeple, aim at a cloud.
   On 14 holes, all that needed to be done was to pick the site for the green and position the bunkers. Architects Michael Hurdzan, Dana Fry and Ron Whitten, the latter the architecture critic for Golf Digest and Golf World, needed only to consult topographic maps and walk around to discover golf holes waiting to be mowed. Together with Lang, they routed the course through a maze of wetlands in a few of days.
   On potential alone, the USGA awarded Erin Hills the 2008 U.S. Women's Public Links Championship 13 months before the course opened. That's doubly significant. First, the USGA had never awarded a championship to an unfinished course, and second, the Women's Publinx is played the week after the U.S. Open.
   Said David Fay, who runs the USGA and is Davis' boss, to owner Robert Lang: "We want to get a feel for how the course looks and plays that time of year."
   Gee, why would that be?
   "We just have to see how it goes," Lang said hopefully. "I'm not lobbying. I'm not pressuring. The USGA, they do like links-style golf."
   This year alone, the U.S. Women's Open was at Newport Country Club in Rhode Island, and the U.S. Senior Open was at Prairie Dunes in Kansas. Both are links courses.
   Few who have visited think Erin Hills' test won't be aced. There will be no problem with length, because the course, a friendly 6,544 yards from the green tees, can play as long as 8,266 yards for the big boys.
   "The first thing we want to do is create a positive experience for our guests," Lang said. "I want people to come in, and for the six hours they're here, to forget about everything. My goal was to build an island, an oasis, dedicated to golf.
   "If we never do more than host the Women's Publinx, we've done something. But I want Erin Hills to be championship caliber if anyone comes in with a tournament."
   The holes evoke memories of other great links courses near and far. One green is similar to the sixth at Shinnecock Hills, and the par-3 seventh, a tremendous blind hole the USGA will probably pass on, was inspired by Lahinch in Ireland. (A 19th hole, built to break ties, will be a fine stand-in.) Everywhere, the spirit of the game is in the air, but many shots should be played the old-fashioned way, on the ground.
   "This is going to be a course that people love centuries from now," Davis said last year.
   Erin Hills is not perfect. The quirky dogleg par-5 first hole will need a bit of work, but mostly, the layout offers the sublime challenge of the old-fashioned links game which all but disappeared when steel shafts arrived.
   There are blind tee shots in some cases, blind and half-blind second shots in others, and greens which swing and sway daringly. The fairways are fescue, not bentgrass. The high fescue near to most fairways is a real hazard, but the fairways are generally generous. As with any new course, not everything is 100 percent grown in, but by next spring's growing season, it should be.
   "We pushed off the opening as long as we could," Lang said, nevertheless eager to share a course that developed from dream to a potential nine holes for his employees and friends to a full-scale championship 18 -- make that 19.
   The sight is spectacular, and the secret is already out. The day we came by, a fellow arrived for his reserved tee time and mentioned that he had flown in earlier in the morning -- by private jet -- and that he picked Erin Hills over Pebble Beach that day. A fellow in front of our group was wearing Bandon Dunes togs. A couple behind us were from the San Francisco area.
   Hurry if you plan to play this year, for Erin Hills closes for the winter on Oct. 29. Unlike Brigadoon, which comes along once every century, this course for all time will reopen in the spring.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2007, 05:50:25 PM »
Tim,

That is nice piece or writing, you clearly out penned the Trib.  Just a few questions.  Did you play the course and were your interviews part of a media day or individual interviews on your own time.  How much of your information is first hand and how much was picked up here and there as I noticed different time frames for various quotes.  Thanks and please feel comfortable that I only ask to get a feel for the process.  Please continue to share other articles as they pertain to golf.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2007, 06:02:05 PM »
How far is Erin Hills from Chicago? Is it worth a trip for a day or do I play elsewhere in Chicago?
Mr Hurricane

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2007, 06:14:28 PM »
Jim:

Erin Hills is about 35 miles northwest of Milwaukee; the nearest town of any size (if you're looking at a map) is Hartford, which is really not much more than a few stoplights and taverns. Depending on where you are in the Chicago area, it's north on I-94, skip over to Hwy 41, and take a left to Hartford before you get to West Bend. It's sort of in the middle of nowhere, but if you see an enormous cathedral on a hill, you're close -- that's Holy Hill, a local landmark and an aiming point for a few shots at Erin Hills.
 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2007, 06:27:25 PM »
A couple of different photos of the course can be found here

http://www.erinhills.com/EHphotogallery/gallery1-new.html

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2007, 07:05:01 PM »
Thanks for posting the article.  As some of you might know I worked on the consturction team out at Erin Hills.  I spent a number of days working with the architects prior to and during the construction of the course.  I also had a chance to meet a number of the guys from the USGA including Mike Davis and David Fay.  It was an extremely enlighting and enjoyable experience.  After spending roughly a year building the course and half a summer on the grounds crew, I can honestly feel like I know the place like the back of my hand.  I agree that the course has some areas that need fine tuning.

Certianly the first hole is some what rough around the edges.  First of all it was the last hole seeded during the construction phase, which meant that it had the most bare spots when we opened for play last year.  I also believe that it is an extremely intimidating and testing tee shot, for ones opening shot.  The second shot is also blind, but with the opption to take caddies for this upcoming summer, this shot should be far less intimidating.  The tree at the corner of the dogleg does not bother me as much as others, but I see why some would downgrade the hole for it.

Besides the spectacular setting and natural contours, I think what will set this course out over time is the variety of green sites and contours.  They range from roughly 2,000 to over 10,000 sq ft., and are clearly the most uniquely contoured I have ever seen(Note: I have not played St. Andrews).  Every green is unique and interesting in its own way.  A number of greens run away from golfers including the 1st and 6th greens, while three of the shorter par fours are either completley punchbowled(4) or have large areas that funnel shots closer to the hole(5, 11, and 15).  Personally I think the Biarritz green works fine, and is also innovative as the middle section houses a number of excellent hole locations.  There are also a number of ecellent green sites set on mounds, where missing the green in a certian area can lead to ones ball running away from the green(2,9,13,17,18).

Please feel free to ask any questions, and I will try to answer them as soon as possible.  Also I plan on working on the grounds crew again and would love to meet with anybody who might be playing out at Erin Hills this summer.

Thanks,
Brendan

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2007, 07:07:38 PM »
Thanks Phil, I will be in Wilmette.
Mr Hurricane

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2007, 08:21:46 PM »
John K:
Thanks for the compliment. It wasn't a media day per se, but it was arranged with Bob Lang by a radio guy in Chicago, two writers, one of them me, came along for the ride. So a freebie, but I'd have been happy to pay.
We spoke with Lang for a good 45 minutes (my tape ran out) after our round. The Davis and Fay quotes came from way back. Couldn't get Davis for a more timely quote, though it's clear his interest had not changed, since he was there the day before.
I look forward to going back and seeing how the rough spots, which, since I see them on every new course, I did not dwell on, have filled in.
Those who have asked how far/long from Chicago: I'm in the SW suburbs, and, counting a stop to car pool, it was about three hours. You cut around the west side of Milwaukee to avoid downtown and end up on the winding road that takes you past Holy Hill. Erin is unincorporated and can't be found on a map - yet - and yes, that sign is awfully small. Augusta National's is huge in comparison.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2007, 08:34:23 PM »
Tim,

I don't get the lack of blue water combs and wish the other guy had not mentioned it...I guess it must be a public course thing.  I didn't care if you payed or not I was wondering if you had played.  I'm sure you earned your keep with the glowing review.

One thing I might disagree with is that lately I have seen many courses open up in prime condition...

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2007, 10:01:09 PM »
...and one more thing.

The Marquette Interchange -- the place right downtown, next to Marquette University, where I-94 and I-43 meet -- is an absolute mess, since it's in the middle of a massive reconstruction (Wisconsin's version of Beantown's Big Dig), and will be for awhile (as in, past 2007).

Chicago folks coming up are probably better off taking the I-894 outer-belt around Milwaukee, then hooking up with 45 North (essentially the northern extension of 894 past I-94), which eventually hooks up with 41 in the outer burbs on Milwaukee. This is doubly advantageous re. Shivas' thoughts, as Blue Mound CC is about a two-minute detour off of 45 at the Burleigh Road exit (hard by Mayfair Mall, I believe...) Go to the Erin Hills website for local directions; it's not exactly near anything.


Jim Nugent

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2007, 12:00:29 AM »
How close are Erin Hills and Lawsonia?  Could you play both the same day, or at least play both on a several-day trip?  

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2007, 09:23:35 AM »
About an hour is right; it's all back roads and two-lane highways, and there may be a few combines that slow traffic down.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2007, 10:32:18 AM »
How close are Erin Hills and Lawsonia?  Could you play both the same day, or at least play both on a several-day trip?  

Jim,

I would second what Shivas and Phil say, except to warn you that you should do it on a weekday, M-Thu.  I played Erin Hills last year on a Saturday and had a miserable 5-hour experience.  And the course ranger didn't seem the least bit concerned.

On a weekday I think you could do both those courses with 7 1/2 to 8 hours of golf, then head over to Kohler, and before you know it your Time and Money accounts could get severely depleted... :)

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2007, 12:28:48 PM »
Shivas and Dr. Childs:

Can the first hole be fixed? What specifically would need fixing? I remember some alluding to the Bog; would a fix require a fill-in to a DNR-sacred wetlands, and thus be architecturally feasible but perhaps not politically? Can they do some wetlands trading, ala WStraits (the guy does have 600-some acres to work with...). Or does the routing -- it's the only way to get "out" into the course -- compromise the possibility of a fix?





Can you guys walk us through the fixes needed on the first hole?

I don't see the reason for the second fairway - except for the forward tee.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2007, 01:54:20 PM »
Well, they'd certainly have to rename it if they took Shivas' advice and took out the tree.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2007, 06:33:12 PM »
Jeff
#1 is an awkward tee shot to start the round with a 220 yard carry over gunch.  There is adequate width and I don't know the prevailing winds but it was in our face when Noel and I played.  We both ended up OK but then you face a second shot again right at the start of the round that is as Shivas said somewhat like the second at Bethpage Black #4.  You hit uphill over a severe ridge on a diagonal where you can also run out of fairway choosing the wrong line. It was in my opinion a bit over the top FOR AN OPENING HOLE.  Its actually a pretty cool pitch third into the green and a nice greensite. Perhaps it might have worked better if it were later in the round but it has the potential to really get you off to a bad and slow start to a round.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2007, 06:47:43 PM »
I doubt if Whitten had your typical Golfweek double digit handicap rater in mind when he designed the hole.  How bout that tough opener at Oakmont?  Is that a bad thing..  To me it looks like a great hole that fits the land...Why should public golfer paying $100+ have to suffer a comprimised design just cause it is public?  I'm feeling that you would like this hole better on a private course.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 06:49:18 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2007, 06:53:17 PM »
I doubt if Whitten had your typical Golfweek double digit handicap rater in mind when he designed the hole.  How bout that tough opener at Oakmont?  Is that a bad thing..  To me it looks like a great hole that fits the land...Why should public golfer paying $100+ have to suffer a comprimised design just cause it is public?  I'm feeling that you would like this hole better on a private course.

I'll choose to ignore your back handed insult and answer other questions if anyone has any.  I don't recall ever playing with you so you don't know my game, handicap or tastes in golf.  I also don't recall you have played the course so your comment about it looking like it fits the land or is a great hole deserves about as much respect as you last post as a whole deserves.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2007, 06:57:23 PM »
G,

I see how my tone might be a bit harsh cause my horse just didn't get it done...and for that I am sorry.  How about my feelings that you would like the hole more if this was a private course.  Is this wrong?  How about my question if the first at Oakmont being so tough is comparable when you discuss a tough start.  Is that wrong?  How about my feeling that this course was not designed with the double digit handicap in mind.   Is that wrong?  Does the hole fit the land or has every report from the site been misleading.  Wrong again?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 06:58:16 PM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2007, 07:15:55 PM »
I think we would all be better off given the bad blood already between Whitten and Klein on the merits of this course that if guys who worked for Golfweek would hold back any future criticisms.  It is just too difficult to pull the truth from the salt and everyone ends up getting hurt.  I am sorry I found myself in the middle of it all.  I am also sorry that I called Noel and Geoffrey typical double digit handicappers as I am sure Geoffrey is much more solid than that given his expertise on Bombsquad.  Sorry to you Geoffrey because after 5 years of reading your posts I do know a little something about your tastes in courses.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2007, 07:19:47 PM »
John K

Just because it "fits the land" doesn't mean it gets a free pass.  All the problems Geoff cites *might* be solved if they switched the nines.  To me the wide-open 10th with the fun (imo) Biarritz green would be a much better starter.

At #1, in addition to the forced carry you typically will have an awkward uneven stance in the middle of the fairway on your blind second shot, so it's really a go-for-broke shot if you choose to go for it.  The good news is a better player might be able to draw-run a 5-wood into for the green, as I recall it slopes downhill from that 55-yd marker.  Don't be long, though, as the recovery chip is a doozy if I remember correctly.

If you're worried about your score, going for that green in 2, blind and requiring a perfect shot, makes no sense--so the hole really offers no true options.  In match play, what the hell, go for it if you want to.  The double-digit handicapper may make a 7 and still end up 1-up on you.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2007, 07:22:11 PM »
Eric,

Where in the architectural "rule book" does it say that the first hole on a course built to host the US Open needs to be easy.  My contention is that if this was a private course it would be looked at differently by the critics.  btw...I think they already flipped the nines once.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 07:22:52 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2007, 07:43:19 PM »
John,
I didn't say I thought 10 was easy.  I said it was a better starter.  The tee shot landing zone is blind to the long hitter (recollecting), but it's clearly wide open.  The second shot is blast away, but I imagine there are "better" places to put the ball depending on the where the pin is on that huge green with a huge swale in the middle.  There are plenty of ways to make double on that hole, and lots of ways to make birdie.  It's simply a better hole and better starting hole.

What I've read about the owner is that he wanted a great course on what he thought was great land.  Do you think he really set out to build an Open-worthy course as his primary goal?  My understanding is the project may be more of an "investment" than the owner anticipated.  I thought he set out to build a fine course and make money.  The latter would be easier if David Fay fawns over the course on national television, so why not invite him up to have a look and a drink of Kool-Aid just before the US Open telecast last year.

In judging a course or hole, I for one make no allowance for it being private or public.  I don't understand why you think this private-course bias exists.  Is Tillinghast's Bethpage viewed  differently by "the critics" than the ultra-private San Francisco?  

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