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Paul_Turner

Cuddington-Minor Colt
« on: September 07, 2002, 04:56:50 PM »
I think this downland course might have "gone to the dogs" since these photos were taken: remodeled greens and surrounded by housing and bushes.  But I post them because I think they show Colt's style quite well-on inland courses other than the heaths.




This hole reminds me of early Merion photos, for some reason.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2002, 05:23:51 PM »
PAUL, You are right, that one hole does look eerily like Merion #9 green, while the style in the other photos looks like a cross between Geo Thomas and SFGC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2002, 08:42:46 PM »
Paul
When was this course built? I agree with Tommy's assessment of the 13th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2002, 04:42:51 AM »
Tommy

That's the Merion hole I was thinking of.  I just checked in G Shackelford's book.  I might scan it in for comparison (if that's OK with Geoff).

Tom

The course was built in 1929.  It's on chalk based downland.  I've read RHK Browning's review of the course from the 30s and it sounded pretty decent.  An interesting routing, on a compact piece of land and with big views over the Banstead Downs.  The greens were recently redone and I think the sunken green in the top photo is no more :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2002, 06:38:54 AM »
Paul
Colt is sometimes criticized for creating greens that are not particularly undulating - that does not seem to be the case here. Is that a fair criticism?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2002, 07:14:24 PM »
Tom

Well compared with say Mackenzie I guess his greens are certainly less undulating.  But all his famous courses have very interesting contours: Portrush, Swinley, Muirfield (probably St Georges Hill, but I haven't played there).  St Georges Hill was criticised for having too wild greens when it opened-I've read this in G Illustrated.  I always thought Muirfield's greens were among the best and I think this years Open proved it.  A varied set with a decent amount of break, even with slowish surfaces.

For very wild greens I think his Eden course has them.  And I've posted a picture of the 13th at Tandridge and 9th at Blackmoor which are (were, in Blackmoor's case) definitely wild.  
On some courses he appears to throw in one or two wild ones-like the 7th at Beaconsfield, the old 15th at Stoke Poges.  With the rest having moderate or subtle contour.

In "Colt and Co", Hawtree mentions some freak greens at Colt's Camberley Heath which were softened before the course opened.  The 2nd there, was one that survived.  It's a great green according to our friend RT.

The 3rd at Wentworth West was a severe tiered green that embarassed Tom Kite in the World Matchplay.  But sadly it was destroyed in the name of fairness!

I believe Hamilton has great green complexes.  Not sure how undulating the surfaces are.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom L

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2002, 02:51:59 AM »
Paul

It certainly has gone to the dogs !!!  These photos look very good but the course is no longer anything like this.  The housing is one problem in that the course is now much more enclosed by suburbia than shown here.  In my opinion however, the bigger issue is that the club completely remodelled the greens about 2-3 years ago in the name of USGA standards - quite why I don't know.  The sort of contouring and bunkering you see there now bears no relation to this and certainly the grass can no longer be described as downland.  The course feels very modern almost American in design which is odd in the middle of Surry.  Banstead Downs almost next door is a much better and less "messed with" course - designed by James Braid.

Cuddington is just a characterless mess !!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2002, 05:36:10 AM »
Tom L

Thanks for the report.  But what a pity!  

Like you say, the housing is one thing (but probably unavoidable) but why on earth would a club use USGA greens on fast draining chalk?  I could tell that the course had its greens remodelled because the Multimap aerial shows them being rebuilt.  I could also tell that the 15th (top photo) green had been shifted.

Some clubs just have no respect for their heritage, if it worked for 70 years, why change it!  :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom L

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 05:41:25 AM »
It was a very odd.  I was playing a lot of golf at Banstead at the time they did it and the course was closed for the best part of 18 months while all the work was done.  Its known in the area as being a very unfriendly club and a club which has very odd priorities.  For example, it has the most superb clubhouse which was only built a few years ago as well but then the course goes to the dogs.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Cuddington-Minor Colt
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 09:46:21 AM »
Tom

Did you play or see the course before the changes.  If you did, were the greens and bunkers still like the photos above?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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