[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

When I rate a course I usually have in attendance two or three sidekicks who have completely different games than mine. One is named Gene (18-22 handicap) and the other Bill (12-15). Each of these guys has played countless well known courses and as we play we often dialogue about the angles, carries and demands the course presents from a range of tees and pin locations.

Your point is well taken and I ALWAYS avail myself the opportunity in appreciating the demands from the different perspectives of various handicap levels. I do not assess the qualities of the course simply from my game alone.

Let me also mention that in playing the extreme back tees I try to provide a hard analysis on whether the course has real teeth or is just a beautiful butter-cup course that gets by on style points and the like. Tim, the architect should always try to create significant challenges for all types of players when at all possible given the dexterity of the players involved.

One last point -- many times if I'm alone and my playing partners cannot join me I will often play from forward tee positions but club down deliberately in order to see the perspective of what the higher handicap player might be seeing from greater distances back in the fairway and how the carries, bunkers, contours of the putting surfaces might affect their play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

Please see my previous post, which I'm sure was posted while you were typing!

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I wasn't so worried about whether the back tees had "teeth", as you say. Rather, I was thinking about situations where the back tees were far more fun to play. More demanding, but more fun at the same time.

On my one trip to World Worlds, I played the back tees while a friend played up front. I recall several holes where it just didn't seem as much fun playing up front, largely because of the different angles. It wasn't a length thing so much as the front tees just seemed less thrilling. If I recall correctly #2 and #4 were good examples. From the back you hit over a hazard;up front you didn't.

It just seemed like my friend wasn't playing as thrilling a course.

There's an example where the back is far preferred just to go out and play, but I wonder if it should be played up front for rating purposes to more accurately reflect what most players will experience.

True, very few people can handle the length of back tees. But, it seems like the forward tees should provide the same thrill, e.g., heroic carries.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim W:

No doubt -- a quality course should provide equal type thrills. I just firmly believe that in assessing the overall claiber of a course when compared to others a good bit of that analysis must be centered on how well the course is set up when played from the maximum.

They don't call the tips the TIPS for nothing!

[ChipOat]

Jeff Goldman:

A par 3 where you have to clear a tree between the tee box and green???

Say it ain't so, Joe!!!

Still looking for an example of a hole that is more difficult from the shorter markers WITHOUT a stupid tree that needs to be cleared.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Chip

It will probably warm the cockles of your heart to hear that the Swiss police, after arresting an "ecowarrior" at the most recent Davos conference, took him out to a local forest and made him hug a tree for an hour as penitence!

Cheers

Rich

PS--the 1st at Dornoch is now harder, IMHO, from the front tees than the back ones.  This is becuase from the front, at 300 you HAVE to think about driving the green, but this can lead to significant "others" if you are not straight and, more importantly, do not have proper distance control.  Who has good distance control on a shot that carries 250 and then rolls for another 30-80 yards, depending on which hump or hollow you happen to hit?  From the back tees (330), you just lay up at 250 and hit the lob wedge stiff.
R

[Jeff Goldman]

Chipoat,

Your original post didn't say "no trees in the way."  Also, you can always try to draw the ball around the tree, but you have to start it very close to the river.  And the tree isn't tough to clear, its just a more difficult shot from the closer tee.  I understand you're generally anti-tree, but don't you thing the River Course is one of the few places that individual trees add a lot?  the tree on the par 5 16th gives 3 real options:  hit a long shot to the right of the tree and a L or S wedge to the green; a shortish shot to the left of the tree and a pw or so to the green over the river;  take a fw wood (or long iron for big hitters) over the tree and try to draw it to the middle of the green.  The trees on 9 and 11 are similarly strategic and (like 13) visually intimidating.  I generally hate trees as hazards because they are basically a cheap out, but these work.

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