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George Pazin

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Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2007, 12:03:49 PM »
Doubt it's as wide as mine - wonder who'll post first?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kyle Harris

Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2007, 12:04:46 PM »
...one of you better get a golf hole up soon because this thread is going down a dark, dark path...

Ulrich Mayring

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Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2007, 12:20:36 PM »
I think for a realistic design competition the ground, that is available for the hole, should be the same for everyone. I mean, I can paint "dunes galore" and "huge area for five playing corridors" and "interestingly shaped, natural burn" and make a great hole that way.

But there are no dunes available where I live, the burns are exasperatingly straight and the huge area is needed for housing :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2007, 11:49:58 PM »
Ulrich,

Do you understand it is the "Lido" Competition? The original was won by Alister MacKenzie with a design that actually worked for a hole to be built completely from scratch at the Lido course being built on Long Island. That first winning design done completely from Dr. MacKenzie's imagination was actually built. Fortunately, no one is going to build this years winners, because it is nowhere near the quality of Dr. MacKenzie's. The only thing near about it is the location of the artist who will be inexpensive to bring to their annual meeting at CPC.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2007, 10:47:13 AM »


I tried to create a strong line of instinct that would be difficult to score low from. There is one bunker, a deep one, in front of the green right on the line of instinct, from which the green basically runs away from in all directions. The line of instinct is strong because it is the only route that does not have a blind drive or is not very circuitous. The lines of charm that would allow the player to get the ball closer have a blind drive, or both a blind drive and blind approach.

When I later looked back at the contest information, I saw the reprint of Alister's guidelines and noticed he did not like blindness. Oops. Since I was breaking up existing dunes to create the hole, I wanted to give the created dunes some similarity to what the rest of the site has so it would at least seem somewhat natural. Therefore, I did not put cuts in my dunes  to make landing areas visible.

The description I sent with the entry is as follows:

The motivation for this design came after first playing Astoria Country Club with its quirky minimalist design routing narrow holes between 30 ft. high parallel dunes. When the course was created designs preserving the dunes and designs cutting through the dunes were submitted, with the design preserving the dunes winning out. The one slight misfortune of this is that there are two pairs of holes that are essentially mirrors of each other, running in opposite directions between the same dunes. Therefore, the variety of holes on the course is reduced as you feel you are playing the same hole in each case, but in the opposite direction. A redesign of the course could keep one each of these pairs as they are quite distinct given the width between dunes. One of the pairs has fairways approximately 12 yards wide, while the other pair has fairways over 25 yards wide in the shallow between the dunes.
The hole design I have created could be used to replace one of the holes that has a 12 yard wide base between the dunes, with the green nestled into this narrow area and the dune in front leveled near the green, the dune in rear leveled later providing a ‘backstop’, and the material from the leveled dunes distributed to bring a series of smaller dunes that define the options on the hole.
The hole is 380 yards long in a direct line from the tee to the center of the green and measures 420 yards around the dogleg of approximately 60 degrees. Various routes can make the hole as much as 440 yards long. There are two routes that could be played without crossing any dunes. The far right route (F) which would be the 440 yard route could be played with low drawing shots to keep the ball below the wind since this is a coastal area with winds blowing in at right angles to the dunes. The far left route (A) would allow a shot of approximately 160 yards between the sets of dunes to the fairway fronting the green after a drive of approximately 230 yards. It is doubtful anyone would try to cross the large dune in front of the green from this position. Route B allow a person that can carry the ball near 300 yards to get in a position for a blind wedge over the fronting dune to the green. The short but straight hitter may choose route C playing through narrow slots between dunes with a drive of 180 yards and a second of 160 yards to get in position in front of the green to try to get up and down. Routes D and E would be require blind drives. Route D would require a carry of approximately 250 yards and would leave a short iron into the green. Route E would give the most generous landing area for the drive carrying 210 yards. From there the player could attempt what would be essentially a bank shot off of the back dune to get the ball on the green. After a 220 yard drive, route F would leave a 220 yard approach that would most likely use the dune to feed the ball onto the green.

The least successful approach to the green would be to come in over the bunker (dug by sheep of course) in a hollow on the left front of the green. There is a ridge between the bunker and the green that will help prevent shots running off of the back dune to run across the green into the bunker. Therefore, it would be extremely hard to get up and down out of the bunker. A hole location on the front ¼ of the green would utilize these features. There is a ridge running thru the back ¾ of the green that makes it advantageous but not required to approach the left rear ¼ of the green with a lob over the tall fronting dune. This would make a mini-Dell hole with a rock placed to designate where you must stay left of to keep out of the bunker. The ridge would also tend to shed balls coming in over the bunker to the wrong side for the current pin location. Two or three pinable areas would be placed in the remaining ½ of the green.

The hole is drawn with one tee. The options are so numerous that players of all abilities should find the hole interesting and challenging without additional tees.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 11:00:07 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2007, 11:07:03 AM »
And then there was one....

I like yours, Garland, it's fits in well with a lot of my own ideas.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2007, 02:58:09 PM »
George,

This is your thread. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that once you have posted your design that you change the title of the thread to invite archies critiques.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ryan Farrow

Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2007, 12:31:49 AM »
Ryan you disguised your faults by not providing enough information. I had always assumed the drive on IV was longer than the drive on II, but then I measured them. They are the same! That reduces your options to 3 not 4. Because of this, I like the middle tee better, which makes the drive to position IV longer and more dangerous than II and results in a definite approach distance advantage.

I guess the other thing I don't get are the distances given for the different tees. They are given as a long range which definitely does not match the drawing of the size of the teeing grounds. Furthermore, the distance given for the back tee goes outside the parameters of the contest.


I think George’s response sums option 3 up the best. It may not be as rewarding but it is a shot where you can aim to the left of the FW bunker and take your chances of not landing in it but getting that extra distance might tempt players to take a bad angle into the green in exchange for a shorter approach.

As far as the yardages go, I measured the long route and short route for each hole. It even surprised me when I added up the yardages and saw such a large distance gap between options, which I think is pretty cool and shouldn’t have warranted a DQ, and I do not think it did. Can't win em’ all, right?

And I see the picture thing worked out all right.
 :)

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

Thank you, I appreciate your comment.

If I could change anything, I would make the back-right tier more receptive to an approach from the right side of the fairway. I think it would make an interesting shot - an upslope in front, the green sloping towards the player, but a tier falling away just beyond the pin.

The idea on the left side of the fairway is that a player must either lay up short of the left bunker; play left of it, much further away from the pin than he'd probably prefer; or else try to squeeze it between the left bunker and the big central one. Perhaps I'd need to accentuate that left-side bunker more.


As for the published entries:

Links' entry seems like it would be very much the same from day-to-day.

Kemps' looks better because different pin positions would facilitate different choices from the tee, although if you can carry it 280 things change a lot, don't they?

Interesting that both guys game themselves water next to their greens, and neither one used it in their designs. Also neither hole offers a safe/easy route to the green.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 01:58:10 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Relevant links:

Golf Digest oonline article

Entry Form

The upsides for entrants:

1) The prize is cash plus a round at Cypress;

and

2) I'm entering this year, so you're guaranteed not to finish last.

I'll post my entry after the results are given, so everyone can participate in "Rip My Entry To Shreds, Part Deux" (or maybe it should be Part D'oh!).

George,

You promised this week. I am sharpening my critique vocabulary in great anticipation.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The reason for my delay is I didn't like my illustration at all (I like the hole design, just not the drawing), so I didn't bother to keep a copy of it.

Here is a quick rendering of the hole:



The basic idea is a slightly different take on using a hilly area (we have tons of that here in western PA). Instead of attacking the hill straight on, you approach it from an angle, with the green atop the hillside.

The choices the golfer faces are whether or not he prefers a level stance, how close he wants to get to the green, and which combination of these he prefers for a given hole location.

If you choose to go long and get close, you either have to stay left for a level stance - at a cost of a steeper, less visible approach shot - or be prepared to deal with a more difficult stance. UNLESS you are capable of flying the 300 yard uphill pot fairway bunker - if you can pull that off, you are rewarded with an ideal angle into the green. UNLESS the hole location is in the back!

Similarly, if you're a shorter high handicapper, you can play relatively straight, but that might bring either pot bunker into play.

Hopefully the hole's design would result in the golfer opting for different strategies on different days, depending on conditions and hole locations.

P.S. I plan on re-doing this thread with all the entries in it next week or maybe the following week, when there is no major to distract; hopefully then we can get some architects to respond with comments.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hi George,

What are the lengths of the approach shots?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
George,

If you are going to redo the thread to try to get archies to comment, you might want to change the subject here again to not encourage them now.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hi George,

What are the lengths of the approach shots?


My hole is about 375 to the center of the green, so the 200 yard tee shot would be looking at about 175 uphill.

The 350 would still be looking at just over 50 yards if he followed the base of the hill.

Some other things I forgot to mention - pretty much every thing is short grass, though not so short that the balls would return back down the hill - just long enough to be able to hold the ball.

I chose 375 because I think the hole would be interesting and playable for everyone at that length.

I could change the title, but I don't think it much matters, we're the only ones looking right now. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2007, 01:38:15 PM »
The proportion of the rise to the green vs the length of the hole in your side view in the drawing makes the hole look nearly impossible. A 50 yd. wedge up that hill might just run along the ground. :)

I like the hole with proper proportions. However, it is not as wide as mine. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2007, 01:41:24 PM »
Yeah, that side view certainly isn't to scale. The hill is just on a hill, not Everest.

I prefer to think of my design as infinitely wide....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2007, 01:57:36 PM »
I got to thinking about my drawing and the terrain at Astoria Country Club. The place I located my tee must be very close to one of the 30 ft. dune tops that already exist there. If my tee were sitting on top of that dune, it eliminates the blindness that I mentioned in an earlier post!

That only leaves the primary remaining blindness to be the self made dell hole when someone chooses to go left and come over the 30ft dune.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2007, 11:49:41 PM »
I was looking at the Lake Merced yardage book today and I noticed the the photographer's name is...Bo Links. Not sure if this is news to anybody, but apparently he's the guy. That's all.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2007, 11:00:54 AM »
Thanks Matt,

It makes sense that he is in an art business since that is the strongest part of his entry.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2007, 02:09:31 PM »
Were there any bunkerless entries?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2007, 03:41:15 PM »
Garland and I were close - I had two, he only had 1!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2007, 03:54:08 PM »
Applause! Applause! I was recently asked to add bunkers to Coldwater, a course that opened with just 21. We added six.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2007, 04:35:35 PM »
Ryan:

It's just the booby prize, but I like your design the best of the ones I've seen here, because it looks like what someone might really design given the topography depicted.

My only tweak would be to give the shorter hitter using Option III a bit more landing area so his shot isn't 95% carry, by dragging the fairway back down the hill a bit.  That way a player who's on line but a bit short could still find his tee shot and hit the second, albeit off a severe uphill/sidehill lie.

Many entries make the length of one's tee shot determine the whole strategy for the golf hole, which was NOT the case in Dr. MacKenzie's original design, if you look closely.  His design was more a case of choosing between evils.  The best angle into the green was clearly from the island to the left, but this did NOT require the longest drive ... so more than the best players could choose it, but you were opting for a longer approach than if you played straight toward the green.  Likewise, the second-best tee shot option rewarded someone who could thread the needle between hazards, instead of carrying it over everything.

They've been running this contest for at least ten years now but they have yet to come up with another Dr. MacKenzie.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2007, 02:15:22 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for the instruction on Dr. MacKenzie's entry.

Also, thanks for seconding my concern about Ryan's design.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:2007 Lido Contest
« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2007, 03:37:51 PM »
Many entries make the length of one's tee shot determine the whole strategy for the golf hole, which was NOT the case in Dr. MacKenzie's original design, if you look closely.  His design was more a case of choosing between evils.  The best angle into the green was clearly from the island to the left, but this did NOT require the longest drive ... so more than the best players could choose it, but you were opting for a longer approach than if you played straight toward the green.

I may not have illustrated it properly, but this was definitely my intent.

The longest drive to a level stance yields an unfavorable angle - unless the hole location is the left side of the green. The longer golfer could trade distance for a favorable angle.

I personally like John Lyon's best, I think.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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