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TEPaul

St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« on: May 01, 2007, 03:45:17 PM »
On the way home from New York to Philly yesterday Wayne Morrison and I stopped off to see our old buddy Adam Jessie, former Shinnecock first Asst who took over last January at this 1916 Devereaux Emmet course. I asked and he said it was fine to put a thread on here about it.

I came from Long Island and I'd never heard of this course which really surprised me. St George's is just another good reason why this website and golf architecture should know more about Devereaux Emmet not just because his architecture is so good but also because he was so early in the first era of good American architecture (for starters I would really like to know how long Emmet remained a non-paid amateur golf architect).

Gil Hanse did a bunker restoration on this course in maybe the last five years.

The first thing that strikes you is the topography of this course both small and large topography, how radical some of it is and how the holes are strung through it in a bunch of pretty gutsy ways.

The next thing that strikes you is Emmet's mounding and combined moundy, ridgy, flat-bottomed coffin style bunker complexes of all kinds of flat-bottomed sand shapes and angles.

There's definitely enough quirk and architectural quirk on this course to suit the most ardent architectural quirkster. And there're three or four or five or six or so holes I guarantee you that you'll never forget. Every one of those ones makes you really want to hit shots on them.

The course has one green as close to a fairly well traveled public road as I've ever seen in golf, and if that weren't enough even with a good drive you'd be lucky to see even the top of the flag.

#4, named Matterhorn has a beautiful perpindicular ridgeline fairway with the potential to be one of the best looking "skyline" fairways I've ever seen. The green is unusual and has some of the most unusual mounding and bunkering totally covering the front of it I've seen anywhere, including a narrow, blind sunken flat-bottomed coffin bunker immediately in front of the green. And when you ride around this one you can definitely see you do not want to go over this green!

A good bit of the flanking fairway bunkering on the course was designed to be shared by parallel holes and one set has faces going both ways.

Adam thinks the fairways should be expanded right up to those shared hole fairway bunkers and he's absolutely right about that.

A couple of the greens are miniscule, topped off by #17 that's very short and plays across a huge really deep pit to a green you wouldn't want to miss by much.

My recommendations were to open up into fairway grass areas that could kick the ball around or approach areas that can kick the ball onto some of the greens from the sides at the end of some radically topographical holes, a few of which are semi to totally blind to the approach.

The course should lose all its numerous cedar trees other than perhaps a dozen.

A lot of the greenside bunkering is really interesting in that it demands that the golfer go a pretty long way out of it to get to some green surfaces and not necessarily because the green surfaces have shrunk ;) (If I remember correctly Tom Doak mentioned in his book "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" this architectural idea appealed to him).

If you happen to play the ball to the back of the short par 5 18th green and the pin is on the front, I'll guarantee you this green is one you'll never forget either.

As much as any I've seen St George's represents golf and golf architecture "of an era", and in that early era in America New York's Devereaux Emmet may've done it as well or better than anyone.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 03:54:23 PM by TEPaul »

David Stamm

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 03:51:06 PM »
Did you or Wayne get any photo's, Tom?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JNagle

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2007, 04:12:20 PM »
Tom -

I visited St. George's years ago and also loved the topography and Emmet's use of the natural land.  The short 4 that you describe is one of the most unique and penal holes I have witnessed, yet nothing about it bothered me.  Not even the blind bunker.  If my memory serves me, the 2nd hole has the echelon or string of pearls across the fairway.  The greens are a great study of the use of bumps, pimples and mounds in place of ridges and tiers.  When you view the greens from various angles you can see that many of the features give the illusion of ridges but in-fact meet a 0 elevation before rising again.  It was not until Tavistock that I saw such a heavy use of similar features within greens.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

SPDB

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2007, 04:24:36 PM »
Proper credit where due - the sage Chip Oat has been singing the praises of this "hidden gem" for years.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2007, 04:35:25 PM »
Tom

I used to trespass on St George's as an undergraduate as it is right across the street from my freshman/sophmore dorms and I really thought the topography was wonderful.  I had no way to play it back then so I drove to Bethpage to play the Black course all the time.  You might say St George's introduced me to architecture through Bethpage.

I've wanted to play ther for some time now and I was planning on a visit with Jason Blasberg some time this season.  It must be in good hands now with Adam working there.

David Mulle

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2007, 05:17:46 PM »
I was a caddy on this course growing up and agree with what everyone was saying regarding the topography.  I will be going back this year for the first time in about 10 years and am looking forward to it.

I second JNagles comments regarding the greens.  The use of smaller mounds in the greens creates a lot of interesting breaks and in many circumstances influences the approaches in the greens.  
 
I haven't seen an Dev Emmett course that I haven't truly enjoyed.  If I remember correctly, St. Georges was built on the grounds of his estate.

TEPaul

Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2007, 05:43:12 PM »
"I haven't seen an Dev Emmett course that I haven't truly enjoyed. If I remember correctly, St. Georges was built on the grounds of his estate."

DavidM:

I don't think so. The club's history book says the club was started in 1915 and the course was built in 1916 on what was formerly the Williamson Farm.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 05:44:08 PM by TEPaul »

David Mulle

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2007, 05:49:36 PM »
Tom,
That very well  may be - I have not seen the club history.  I was relying upon what members told me when I was caddying and I think that I also saw it in Doak's Confidential Guide.

wsmorrison

Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2007, 05:52:53 PM »
Here are some photos from a link Mike Sweeney sent me:












David Stamm

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Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2007, 05:57:26 PM »
Thanks Wayne.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Geoffrey Childs

Re:St. George's G&C, Stony Brook, L.I.
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2007, 06:20:25 PM »
I second JNagles comments regarding the greens.  The use of smaller mounds in the greens creates a lot of interesting breaks and in many circumstances influences the approaches in the greens.  
 
I haven't seen an Dev Emmett course that I haven't truly enjoyed.  

I agree with both of those statements David.

When I think of Dev Emmet greens I always go back to the 9th at Wee Burn for such simple and effective strategy.  The uphill medium/short part 4 is fronted on the left of the green by a deep foreboding bunker.  The center or front center of the green is dominated by a good sized mound that is a task to putt over if you are on the wrong side relative to the hole location. Front half of the green pins seem at first on the approact to beg for a "safe" shot to avoid the bunker.  Yet, the bunker is about as good a leave for those pins then if you "safely" played to the middle to back of the green avoiding the bunker.  Putting over that little mound required perfct touch or you surely will be left with a long second putt.  Very cool stuff.

My town course that was home before I was at Yale was a Dev Emmet course as well (formerly Vernon Hills CC - now Lake Isle).  It featured front to back greens, moundingf aroud some greensites with steep deep falloffs, a really long par 3 and par 4 and a really efficient routing over a small property.