Tiger Says Oakmont is a Much Tougher Members' Course than Winged Foot

[Tom Huckaby]

Do they ever rate or guesstimate a rating for a course like Oakmont or Winged Foot under Open setup/conditions?

I'm sure people guess, but I'd be shocked if any official rating is done - what's the point?  Those guys ain't exactly using handicaps.  Although the members would certainly appreciate some handicap help in the run-up and post-event situations....

Doug - good call - Oakmont seems to be tougher from tips, Winged Foot from members' tees.  So Tiger is perhaps full of it.  

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

The key operative word in this entire discussion is "much tougher." Frankly, there is no American golf course that is "much tougher" than Winged Foot / West that I have personally played (check the scores of all major events played at the course). I concede Oakmont might be a tad beyond the likes of the Mamaroneck layout but the difference is the space that Affirmed finished over Alydar in the Triple Crown races.

I tip my cap to Tiger if he sees it differently. However, should he make the cut then he's done something at Oakmont that he failed to do at Winged Foot / West last June.

End of story.

P.S. Can't deliver the jet ride but can offer you a cold six pack of Rolling Rock instead !!!

George P:

Your words are so apt ... "prefer to wallow in my own ignorance." Enjoy the bliss of such moments.

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

While I generally find your arguments on this topic convincing, the reliance on Tiger's missed cut at WF is more than a red herring. If any missed cut in a major by a top-tier player in recent years deserves as asterisk, it's that one by Tiger.

To go with your argument, WF must be a much easier course than TCC at Brookline. After all, Jack missed the cut there in '63, and made the cut at WF in '74.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

I use the situation at Winged Foot / West simply because it's in the record books and is what it is.

If one were to slap an asterisk on such a situation then you might as well include one for a whole host of reasons (e.g. coming off injury or other such inclusion that one feels you can insert).

When a player tees it up he's ready to go -- that's an implicit statement. Falling back on pre-packaged excuses doesn't cut it and frankly no less than Tiger would say the same given his utter professionalism.

My argument on WF / West goes beyond just what Tiger did there. I've referenced the fact that if you analyze scores played at the Mamaroneck layout over all the key events played there the facts are what they are.

I also said this before -- this thread started with the words "much tougher." Frankly, I would like to know the name of any other bonafide regular member of the championship rota in the USA that is "much tougher" than Winged Foot / West. If that were the case then players would have a difficult time in breaking 300 for four rounds.

In regards to TOC it's important to point out that because of freakish weather conditions and a late grow in following the winter the four round totals at TOC / re: 1963 US Open were the highest in the post WWII time frame for a major, if memory serves. Jack did miss the cut -- no doubt about that -- but Jack's overall performance at WF / West is also noticeable for what he did and didn't do there as well.

[Adam Clayman]

When Tigers breaks par in the U.S Open this year will anyone notice that the faster greens speeds helped him do that?

These guys can't handle slower.

[Phil Benedict]

Quote from the GolfChannel.com

"The buzz over the difficulty of Oakmont, the site of this year’s U.S. Open, continues to grow. Tiger Woods reportedly needed a full 3-wood to get to the green last weekend in a practice round at Oakmont’s 288-yard, par-3 eighth hole.
 
USGA course set-up guy Mike Davis told me he thinks Oakmont’s 231-yard 16th will actually play the toughest of the par-3s there. Davis also said he didn’t expect to hear the “fair” word, prevalent at last year’s U.S. Open at Winged Foot, from the world’s best players when they arrive.
 
But those complaints won’t be because of the set-up, Davis said, they will be because of the architecture.
 
Earlier this month USGA Executive Director David Fay was quoted in the Wall Street Journal as saying, “Oakmont was the big, bad wolf of American golf courses when it opened in 1904 and it remains the big, bad wolf 103 years later.”

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Great quote -- I do agree with Mike Davis (superb guy who has handled Open set-ups quite well) that the par-3 16th will be a bear of a hole. If the USGA cuts the pin tigh to the far right -- as it's been in previous Opens it becomes a matter of great golf skill and divine intervention to get anywhere near the hole. In comparable terms -- the 8th is long but you can run the ball on. The 16th is just that much more demanding --even if it gives over 50 yards away.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne Morrison, I knew you were rude but I didn't know you were this rude.

Tiger Woods has never played Merion.

What the hell's the matter with you? You call him up right now and invite him to play.

In return maybe he will give us a ride on his Gulfstream."

Tom,

I did write to Tiger Woods, care of IMG, and invited him to play Merion and Pine Valley (he hasn't played there yet either).  I presumed that the Mayor wouldn't mind taking Tiger around PVGC.  I haven't heard back, nor do I expect to.  But who knows?  Stranger things have happened.  Then again, Woods has a former Amateur competitor and, from what I hear, friend that is a member at both and just happens to be the next Walker Cup captain to boot.  

In any event, I hope he comes to visit even if he blows me off for rounds with Buddy.  While they're playing Merion, maybe he will let us go for a joy ride in the Gulfstream or better yet, Boeing business jet.  Why don't you contact your neighbor's stewardess so we can join the Mile High Club.  But you're probably in that already after your return flight from the Bahamas

Hey, if not Tiger, there's always Bill Murray.  Let's get that one together.

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Wayne,

My best friends Mom is 2nd cousins with Tom Hanks...does that count for anything??  

[Kerry Gray]

Our fear should be what these statements may do to provoke a difficulty war. That's not Tiger's fault. God help WF if they decide to do something so Tiger will proclaim them as the toughest course.
Would the course "doctors" refuse or try to talk them out of it?
Unlikely

[Phil_the_Author]

This idea of biggest, toughest and bad-assest of golf courses on the planet based upon players statements such as tiger's is ludicrous.

Carnoustie... toughest ever, followed by Bethpage Black in 2002 where every player made statements saying that it mad Carnoustie look like a pitch and putt course.

Winged Foot, now Oakmont...

The brutality of these courses are equal, yet like heavywieghts one throws a million jabs like Ali and another a thundering punch like Tyson.

Just as each fighter was the toughest at a point, so too these courses.