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wsmorrison

Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2007, 08:05:58 AM »
Your 12 hole course concept of a 6-hole loop and two 3-hole loops is an interesting idea, Paul.

Tom,

I'll send you drawings of the Rockefeller family course that may inspire some original ideas.  While it seems that 400 home owners would result in more play than a reversible course could handle, Wm. Flynn's plan of 11 greens including one double green is fascinating and may offer some inspiration to you.

In my opinion, however many interesting holes you can provide, be it conventional or unconventional in number, would offer the most satisfaction in play over time.  A Himalaya style putting green as part of the facility would allow a wonderful family activity.  

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 08:25:36 AM »
Shouldn't the neihborhood be taken into consideration? What I mean is there a regulation course within reasonable driving distance? If not, perhaps the full bore nine hole idea would be best suited. I do like the idea of a quirky short course and agree with Rihc that there are multiple examples that have past the test of time.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 08:26:23 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 08:26:58 AM »
Tom Doak,
I remember you writing(in TCG) about your desire to build a bold par 3 course. Maybe this is the place.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 08:27:12 AM »
Tom, I'd have to say C or Jeffs Idea althought Paul Idea sounds good.

For opition C I would at RCD No.2. At just over 4500 yards from the back sticks, even without a wind a scatch player will struggle to shoot Par. But the great thing about the layout is the fact it is easy for "Juvvie's" to shoot a good score. The layouts only weekness it too many forced carries and wind bushes which are big "no-no's" on a family course.


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 09:14:26 AM »
Tom -

Next door to East Lake is a wonderful short course called Charlie Yates G. C. (Built as part of the community redevelopment effort about 1995.)

Charlie Yates is 18 holes composed of only par 4's and 3's. It is plenty challenging and a delight to play. And very popular.

I also like Paul's idea of a 12 hole course with lots of loops back to the clubhouse.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 09:21:14 AM by BCrosby »

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 09:22:36 AM »
The best nine hole course possible, with two sets of tees where feasible, for "first nine" and "second" nine, and with a small practice facility.  
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 09:39:19 AM »
Paul, I like that idea.  Sounds like a really fun puzzle to route, plus it could provide more options for different skill levels of players.  

Tom, I pick a fun and interesting 9-holer that doesn't talk down to the guests.  Once in a while, I play an inexpensive, quirky resort course 9-holer near our upstate place, and I see people at all skill levels just having a lot of fun (kid fun, therapeutic fresh-air fun, I really suck at this fun -- all kinds of fun).  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2007, 10:18:38 AM »
Tom,
As you know the options are limitless.  Maybe this thread generated some new ideas but I doubt there are/will be too many you didn't think of already.  

If you want my advice, I believe the key words in your initial post are "family oriented"   ;)  That should narrow it down significantly.

Have fun with it!
Mark

Phil_the_Author

Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2007, 10:56:12 AM »
Tom,

Build the best and most challenging nine-hole course that you can and then build short par-three course next to it that families can go out on including young children.

You also might consider building two great 6-hole courses as an alternative.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2007, 11:25:13 AM »


You also might consider building two great 6-hole courses as an alternative.

I was just thinking the same thing as I read this.  Something Langford advocated after the depression.  

A fun nine holer that could be played in reverse would also be quite original.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2007, 12:17:00 AM »
I remember my first golf with my dad on a very short par 3 course in Marin County, California.  It was a lot of fun to play and you could go around several times and learn all sorts of shots and how to play match play, etc.  I think it was called "Las Gallinas."

If the topo works, I would love to see a really good, flexible, shortish nine holer with two very different sets of tees.  Maybe the front nine a hole is 230 par 3, on the back nine it's a 265 yard par 4 from a different angle.  

So a number of groups would be on the par 3 course, another bunch on the nine-hole course.

As somebody said above, it's a question of what fits.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2007, 12:53:42 AM »
Tom,

I would go with a good 9 holer, maybe not to long so as suit 'family golf' and a fun practice facility designed also for the entire family.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2007, 08:27:11 AM »
I would make sure the practice areas are great.  We added a full length practice area at my club and I amazed by how many people with young families simply practice and go home.  Our 9 hole rounds are down significantly since the range was added.  Jim Finegan played 9 holes everyday after work a man of my generation would hit balls,  BTW the practice options at Philadelphia CC may not have encouraged him to hit balls.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2007, 08:53:34 AM »
Tom:

12 holes, and head quickly to Blackwaterfoot on the Isle of Arran to see how it's done well at the Shiskine Golf & Tennis Club (I believe the Open is soon to be held at Turnberry, and it's a quick hop from there).

Advantages (not knowing anything about the site): Parent can get in early-morning round sans kids in less than two hours. Parents can take kids on an enjoyable, not overly taxing round (I've always though it hard to hold the interest of children learning the game at more than nine holes). It'd be more affordable, presumably. You could presumably build some quirk into it (sub-300 yard par 4s, funky or blind-ish par 3s) and still have a few holes that legitimately challenge the best players from back tees. You'd take full advantage of the land.

After having played Shiskine, I'm still amazed that more courses like it aren't built (OK, the land is pretty unique -- the idea of 12 holes is what I'm getting at). It seems like an ideal compromise in the face of less-than-perfect situations.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2007, 09:27:51 AM »
Phil:

I played Shiskine back in 1983.  Don't know if they would really want something as wild as that, but as always, it's a matter of what fits.

Mike T:

Is it a good thing that nine-hole rounds are down in favor of hitting range balls?  You don't get much exercise banging balls.

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2007, 10:58:55 AM »
Tom,

Seems to me that the developer, in hiring you, must have expectations based on your track record, philosophy, etc. that could limit what you can do. If he is looking to promote a resort with a Tom Doak course, possible buyers would presumably have in mind a full length course. However, based on the limitations you can now see, I agree that a funky executive length course with lots of par 3s and several tees would work best for a family resort.  

I also totally agree with a Himilayas type putting course. Nothing is more fun for a family.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2007, 11:06:03 AM »
I would suggest 12 or 13 holes. A regulation 9 hole course without forced carries and no condescending "kids" tees (as a kid, my brothers and I simply agreed that 2 x par was our par and played along side dad). Then build a 3 or 4 hole "practice" course. either 1 par 3, 1 par 4, 1 par 5, or 1 par 3, 2 par 4s, 1 par 5. This is real "man sized" stuff for dads to get out and play without the family.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2007, 11:59:38 AM »
Tom,

Do you have room for the nine holes and then a practice facility/par 3 course similar to what is planned at Bay of Dreams?

Seems like that option could provide something for everyone... Dad plays serious nine holes early spends the afternoon with the family and early evening take the shoes off and exlpore the options on the practice course/par 3.  


SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2007, 03:07:47 PM »
Two questions I have are:
Where is it located, and What is the goal of the developer in putting in the course?

The northern areas have much traditionally been very accepting of 9 hole layouts.  South of the Mason-Dixon, you'll have very little acceptance and very little play unless you go with an executive course of some sort.

Is the golf course used as a vehicle to increase adjacent real estate?  Is it the only amenity?  Is it expected to be a profit center?  Is it the primary marketing tool?

I like the idea of a Himalaya course, and may be perfect for a family type resort as an upscale mini-golf experience.  It may need to appeal to young kids, though.  I don't think a glamorous practice center is necessary, but a range (even with limited flight balls) is so dads can hit balls with kids.

Interesting project.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2007, 04:33:42 PM »
Sounds like the kind of place I would like to spend some vacation time with my family, Tom.  What about a good sporty 9 holer, and then 3 holes with a couple flags per green combined with a fun practice facility?  Would this fit the limited acreage?  Seems to me that making the 9 holer both easy enough for beginners and yet tough enough for the more serious player an interesting challenge to  overcome.  Although I've seen designers and courses market their course as "fun for all skill levels", that usually means its pretty blah for everyone.    Please, keep us posted as to what plan you take forward and the location.  Thanks.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 04:37:07 PM by Brad Swanson »

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2007, 01:47:51 AM »
Based on my experience at Katepwa Beach, where an inferior eighteen hole layout with mostly 3's and short 4's but a few longer 4's and 5's was transformed into a nine hole course, I would strongly advise your client not to "downsize" the quality of the golf but rather go with fewer holes, likely nine, of the highest quality feasible. Players who travel to play the course almost always ask, "when will it go 18?", but members who play it regularly (most who have previously been members of eighteen hole clubs) have really come to like, even prefer, the nine hole experience. I know guys who get up and play nine holes and are back to their cottage before anyone else has even stirred, and they can spend the rest of the day with their families on the lake, at the beach, etc. Others play back to back nines from alternate tees. Still others, like myself, will often play nine in the morning with the guys and nine in the evening with their wife and children. My wife enjoys golf but is really turned off by eighteen holes. She and others like her would rather play a "real" nine hole course than a downsized eighteen hole course. They have absolutely no attachment to the concept of eighteen holes. None whatsoever.

Now for what I wish we hadn't done. We had some extra land left over at Katepwa and we created a course with tiny grass greens but otherwise non-irrigated tees and fairways. It's called "The Family Nine" and consists of nine holes, mostly par 3's and a few short par 4's. I get a kick out of watching people play there. Anything goes. Speedos and tank tops. Twelvesomes. Groups that range in age from 5 to 95. But I now believe it was a mistake. We should have gone with a much shorter course that complimented the full length nine holer. It would actually be more accessible to new golfers than the current course and would attract "real" golfers too, while providing a far better opportunity for young players to grow into the game by developing a love for the short game. I would design the holes so that grandmas could tack and bunt the ball to the green, while better players would be encouraged to develop a full repertoir of short game shots. The greens would be really large with lots of undulation.

Most who have posted here talk about "Family Golf" as though it is "Parent and Young Child" or "Golfer Spouse and Non-Golfer Spouse". It's a lot more than that. The ideal facility will accomodate that but also accommodate the full spectrum of family golf and that includes teenage children paying with their parents and their friends, grown children who are home visitng their parents, etc. True, full blown golf is what these families want.

A final comment. If your client is concerned about property values as I'm sure he is, he should definitely go with a full length nine hole golf course. There is an older, shortish nine hole course fifteen minutes from Katepwa. Since the course at Katepwa was built, a very significant discrepancy in real estate values has developed between properties near each course. People want to be able to play real golf and they'll pay to be close to it.  

Phil_the_Author

Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2007, 08:24:39 AM »
One other thought Tom, if you decide to go the route of building a single or two nine-holers of any type, give a copy of Tony Pioppi's new book with your proposal.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2007, 10:38:18 AM »
I would go with the nine holer option. If there are concerns about accommodating families, couldn't that be addressed with tee options? I personally hate to see a course forced somewhere just to attain the "proper" standard of 18.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2007, 01:21:32 PM »
How about a great nine holer and and 18 hole putting course for the kids and families.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Best Kind of Alternative Course
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2007, 04:40:59 PM »
C.

Golf needs many, many, many more C's.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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