[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The 15th hole at Mountain Lake is a delightful short par 4 with a blind punchbowl green. It plays 324 slightly uphill. I have seen it driven and have as long a 150 shot in depending on the wind. More often than not it is a 50 to 100 yard 2nd shot. I played with the club champ and green comm chairman a few times and they feel the hole is not working well. There are a few maintenance issues in those observations but those will be addressed. I love it. I personally like a short par 4 for a punch bowl.  My only complaint is the same as many punch bowls I have played in that you do not get to watch your creativity at work due to the blind second shot. Number 8 at Pacific Dunes has a punch bowl feature on the rear 1/3 of the green allowing for the ball to be feed to different locations on the green. What is the general feeling on punchbowls and what length of hole is best for them?

[TEPaul]

Tiger:

In the last couple of months I became aware of something pretty interesting regarding the punchbowl green of Mountain Lake. Of course by that I mean the original punchbowl green that no longer exists.

The punchbowl green that's there now is Brian Silva's. The green that preceded Brian's green was not a punchbowl but the original Raynor punchbowl green at Mountain Lake has some very interesting history.

It was in fact the model or prototype on which Raynor created the ultra-cool punchbowl green at The Creek Club in Long Island that's the coolest green on that course and one of the most interesting greens anywhere, in my opinion.

The Creek's is a punchbowl but it does have an open front (of sorts) probably because the hole has always been app 450 yards long although straight downhill.

So of course the real question becomes what was the original Raynor punchbowl green at Mountain Lake like? Are there any photos or original plans of it anywhere?

I certainly made the Mountain Lake Green Chairman aware of this history and we plan on following up on the research if there's anything out there somewhere.

I did have a recommendation to make that present Mountain Lake punchbowl green a bit more interesting in play but that was a few years ago and I can't remember right now exactly what that recommendation was. I think it had something to do with expanding the slight circular rise in the back half of the green.

[BCrosby]

Mike Young's Punchbowl at Longshadow is terrific.

At 210, slightly uphill, the massive Puchbowl 17th works beautifully.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I'm glad you mentioned the punchbowl at Longshadow.

It certainly proves the various ways a clever architect can alter or reutilize a basic architectural concept (in this case the basic punchbowl shaped green)----with the iteration at Longshadow on a long par 3.

The fine thing about Mike's Longshadow punchbowl is most of the back half of the massive green works as something of a bolster and probably a filter back effect which makes perfect strategic sense on such a long shot.

How big did he say that thing was? Was it 15,000 sf?

[SPDB]

The 14th.

[Kalen Braley]

Saddle Creek in Nor Cal has a punchbowl green on number 15 that is fun to play.  The hole is fairly short, 340 from the whites, 370 from the blacks. The fairway sits in a saddle and pinches down as it gets closer to the green. The 1st half of the green is open and can accept a run up shot, while a shot to the back part of the green is completely blind.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom Paul is onto the issue at hand in a site specific way. I tend to favor downhill or slightly open front myself. The Creek punchbowl is a thing of beauty.

[John_Cullum]

I don't like the idea of a short approach to a punchbowl green. I think it works best on a longer par 3 or long 4.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom Paul is onto the issue at hand in a site specific way. I tend to favor downhill or slightly open front myself. The Creek punchbowl is a thing of beauty.

Tends to allow for 90 yard putts, eh Tiger?

[Adam Clayman]

I'm a big fan of the 5th at Wild Horse. A shortish two shotter. Not only did Dan & Dave hide the narroness off the tee, they balanced it with the punchbowl green, gaurded by that marvelous convex bunker.

[Chris Cupit]

When we re-did last year our ninth hole was a 382 yard slight dogleg right.  The second shot played uphill and you could barely see the flag if it was on the front half of the green.

We added fairway bunkers and tightened the drive up so a player either tries to fit it in and have a wedge or if you play short of the bunkers to the fat part of the fairway, you would have 150-140 yards.

Since the green was already pretty much blind, we decided that this was a great chance to have a punchbowl green.  I enjoyed the idea of running up in anticipation of where your shot ended up.  The left side and short of the green is dotted with 9 bunkers! that a set into the hillside and we planted fescues and sedges to make it looking even more menancing

It's a cool hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tiger,

Great gca question.  I love discussing this type of theory, absent of the "you must fit the land" which is a given, of course.

I suppose it depends on what you think a punch bowl should bring to a course.  I tend to use them on:

1. par 3's as a concept shot
2. Long approaches to increase target size
3. To compensate for a frontal hazard like creek or bunker or steep bank, to give the golfer an option to play long and still hit the green.

It seems to me that on a short par 4, the approach is easy enough and perhaps made easier.  That said, if a course cried out for a breather hole, a punch bowl on a short 4 would be a nice addition.

[Jerry Kluger]

George Bahto's book seems to indicate that Macdonald believed that a punchbowl green should be a blind shot. Apparently, he also had some significant contours in the green at NGLA as originally built.  

It is interesting how some of these designs have evolved, either intentionally or not.  The 4th hole at Jim Engh's Blackstone CC seems to combine a cape hole/green with a punchbowl green.  It is a longish par 4 which generally plays into the wind with a lake down the right side.  The green has two distinct sections separated by a large spine, with the left side being more than double the size of the right. The small right side appears to be floating out in the water as a cape type green while the left side is a punchbowl with a bunker in the front. Very interesting design and clearly a left side pin is far more forgiving that a right side pin.  

[Bill_McBride]

Mike Young's Punchbowl at Longshadow is terrific.

At 210, slightly uphill, the massive Puchbowl 17th works beautifully.

Bob

For an opportunity to have a first hand look at the Long Shadow punchbowl, keep an eye on GCA.com for the formal announcement of Dixie Cup 4.  

[Mike Policano]

Tiger, I really enjoyed the punchbowl at Mtn Lake. And I think the Creek's punchbowl is fabulous. Has some playing characteristics of a reverse redan.

I think the punchbowl can work on par 4's of various lengths. I think for any particular course it may depend on the strength of the other par 4's.

If there are a number of difficult par 4's then a ML 15 can work well.

Cheers

[Bill_McBride]

Tiger, you will be able to play a very interesting modern punchbowl May 5th at Pensacola Country Club.

#17 is a 455 yard par 4 (tips), 419 from the blues, with a cape-style tee shot over a lake, and second shot into a true punchbowl where it is great fun to watch the ball run up the firm slope and disappear.  

Here is a photo of #17 from the blue tee, with the punchbowl directly in front of the temporary cart barn (tented version).



See you weekend after next.

[BCrosby]

I think blindness is an important part of a good Punchbowl. As MacD noted.

Young's at Longshadow is uphill. The green surface is not visible, though the pin is.

The P/B at Silva's Black Creek is also blind. There is a high ridge across the front of the green. The P/B there is at the 6th, a reachable par 5. Another good use of the concept.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger,

I don't think that there's a "perfect" punchbowl.
 
I've enjoyed the concept on a variety of holes, uphill, downhill, par 3, par 4 and par 5.

Montclair has a neat punchbowl at the foot of a dogleg par 5 that works exceedingly well.

It's a deep punchbowl with a two tier green the right side is open with a ramp for run-in shots, the left side is guarded by a good sized bunker.  The sides of the punchbowl are steep.

NGLA's punchbowl on a par 4 is neat because there are two flanking punchbowls in the fairway DZ as well as the green.

The Creek's is the hardest of the bunch because the green cants like a Redan.  The Creek also has a reverse Redan from an elevated tee on # 8 and a Redan like green on # 1, a par 4.

Essex County has a huge, neat punchbowl green on a par 4.

Morris County has a punchbowl on a par 3, although its configuration is not as severe as the others.

CBM, SR and CB seemed to like them, perhaps that's why that style repeats itself in their designs.

# 1 at Yale was supposed to be a combination punchbowl green as well.

While I've heard some architects shy away from them due to drainage issues, one has to question that motive as the 1st hole on the # 4 nine at Montclair, the 6th hole at The Creek and the 16th at NGLA don't appear to be ideal sites from a drainage perspective.

A "punchbowl" green can be a bold design, with severe confining slopes and interesting green configurations and contours/slopes.

I find them fascinating in terms of their genesis and I find them "sporty" to play.

I'd like to see more of them in modern designs.

When will the 12th at GCGC be restored to its punchbowl like appearance ?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Interesting discussion.

I tend to think the concept works better with a longer approach but great examples can be found for short and long holes.

One not mentioned yet is the 15th at Sleepy Hollow which I believe is being converted back to a long par 4 from a shortish easy par 5.  I'm anxious to see what Gil and George have done.  The old 12th, an uphill boring par 4 will now be an exciting risk reward par 5.

Another terrific par 3 punchbowl was "found" by Mike Devries on the front 9 at The Kingsley Club. Its about 200 yars and it plays really well.  Combined with the great short par 3 2nd hole TKC has a great combo.

Finally, when Yale restores its DOUBLE punchbowl 3rd green it will be a great golf hole.  A blind second towards the water to the largest green on the course.

[Bill_McBride]

Finally, when Yale restores its DOUBLE punchbowl 3rd green it will be a great golf hole.  A blind second towards the water to the largest green on the course.

Geoff, when was that photo taken?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Bill

Its a construction photo (probably 1925).  I don't believe there are any photos of that green from after the course opened.

The photo was taken from about the position of the 4th (road hole) tee.  The pond is (will be) at the left side of the photo and is the same water hazard that is in play (replacing the railroad shed of St Andrews 17) for the drive on 4. This green was estimated by George Bahto to be some 60 yards or more long extending up to about the front to first third of the current 3 green but hard on the pond. My hope is that will be the last piece of a full restoration.

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