[Ed Tilley]

P.S. I give Trevino the edge with a 4 number -- his diversity of majors and overall record -- his complete dexterity as a shotmaker (no disrespect to Seve) as just two elements that give the Merry Mex the edge. Just one quick note -- I have the utmost respect for what Seve has done for golf -- specifically on the European side of things.

I'm a bit confused - how is Trevino's overall record of 45 career wins (excluding seniors) superior to Seve's 95 career wins?

Honestly, you Americans can be so blinkered at times - not one of you has said Seve. Seve was a true bona fide genius. There is not one European player of that era who does not speak of Seve in terms of awe - including the likes of Faldo, Langer, Lyle, Woosnam, Olazabal. Just because he didn't play much in the States shouldn't make you lose sight of what a great player he was - and remember when you devalue those European tour victories that the 5 people above were playing in most of them.

Little Big Ed

Don't get confused.  I don't think anybody doubts Seve was a great player.  We were asked to compare him to Trevino.  From my perspective, I don't care about tour victories, they don't determine greatness or I would have Snead top of the list.  All I care about is majors.  Of course it is subjective what I label a major!  Seve should have gone on to be a greater player than Trevino.  Only he held himself back with loco behaviour.  Such is life.  

There is no question that Seve along with Faldo are the two main players in the gap between Watson and Woods.  For the record, week in and week out, I would have taken Faldo.  A very close call, but Faldo on the third extra hole.  

Ciao

Sean,

I was merely pointing out the fact that the comment that Trevino's overall record was superior to Seve's was, to use a technical term, utter bo**ocks. I also think that most people posting here were completely unaware of this and that, due to Seve's dispute with the US tour, they don't realise what a great player he was. It's a very close call between the two but I thought it strange that not one person said that Seve was the better player.

I also agree that Seve was a bit (understatement) mad and that he should have had a better record than he has, particularly at the US Open and the US PGA. His Seve v America attitude he built up did wonders for his Ryder Cup performances but I don't think it helped his cause at the US Open.

[Jim Nugent]

Seve by 5.

Where do you put Seve among the all-time greats?  What about Trevino?  If Seve wins by 5 over Lee, who are Lee's (and Seve's) equals, IYO?

I think Seve had a greater impact on the game, similar in a way to what Arnie did.  I think Lee might have had the better career, based on his majors record and the fact that he had to beat Nicklaus, though I can see the POV for those who support Seve.  

[jeffwarne]

Trevino was much more consistent ballstriker, rarely missing fairways and greens.
he was however an incredible shotmaker, manuevering the ball at will to access tight pins.
He may not get the credit he deserves as a shotmaker because he wasn't having to curve it through or around trees.

Seve had more power, but was more inconsistent as a ballstriker.(although he could be an awesome ballstriker at times)
he had more opportunity for spectacular recoveries because of his power and the fact he was in obscure places more often.
he also had all the shots when approaching from preferred positions.
Short game though is not even close-Seve was the greatest ever, although Tiger is not far behind.

As far as careers Trevino had the better US record and Seve had the better worldwide record by a large margin. (mainly because of where each chose and was forced to play )

Trevino's career was interrupted by being struck by lightening at the Western Open which gave him recurring back problems.
Seve's star seemed to burn out in his mid 30's after playing at a high level from such a young age.

I'd give the nod to Seve because of his worldwide career(and the fact he a decent US record with a VERY limited US schedule-not totally his choice), as well as impact on the Ryder Cup and European golf.

 Obviously Trevino had more longevity(having appeared at a much later age) and could give Seve 3 a side today, but does any one care about Senior golf besides the players themselves?
Would we give the nod the Barry Bonds over Hank Aaron because he could hit more homers in an oldtimers game?

[Phil Benedict]

i think it was in his 86 Masters article that Herb said Seve had the best practice session he ever saw

In the New Yorker.  Was awed by Seve's ability to hit driver off the deck.  Funny what we remember, isn't it?  I can't remember what I had for dinner last night but I too remember that article from over 20 years ago.

[olivier]

Didn't both Trevino and Ballesteros participate in a one club exhibition event that was staged at St. Andrews at some point in the 1980's?  Does anyone remember that? Was it ever shown on TV in Britain?

It was on the BBC back in 87 or 88. Seve won easily as he would have against anyone else at the time I believe. I remember Trevino saying he should have played with his trusted 3 iron instead of (If I remember correctly) a 5. Seve played with a 5 iron.

[Tim Pitner]

Well, Trevino has more major championships, but I don't think many players feared Trevino--they definitely feared Seve.  So, I'll say Seve by 1 (and Ed, I'm an American).  

[PThomas]

i think it was in his 86 Masters article that Herb said Seve had the best practice session he ever saw

I'd give Trevino the nod because he was a much better driver off the ball...

Driver? Trevino was simply the best shotmaker who ever walked onto a course! THAT is his grace ...... far beyond even Seve.

Doug

what about Hogan Doug??  and if Tiger ever starts to hit more fairways I'd give him the nod

[PThomas]

i think it was in his 86 Masters article that Herb said Seve had the best practice session he ever saw

In the New Yorker.  Was awed by Seve's ability to hit driver off the deck.  Funny what we remember, isn't it?  I can't remember what I had for dinner last night but I too remember that article from over 20 years ago.

thanks Phil

and I prefer to think of it that I remember the truly important things - like this Seve tidbit- vs. stuff like last night's dinner, that thing around the house I'm supposed to do, etc....

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

People seem to forget what a few have mentioned -- Lee's consumate skills as a shotmaker and his considerable skill at driving the ball accurately.

The other thing to remember -- so much of Seve's golf career was consumed with the Beaman situation here on the PGA Tour. It's frankly too bad the temperamental Seve could not have worked out a better arrangement for him to play here more often. Alas, his ego got in the way on that one.

I also have to say this for Seve fans (myself included) -- his career took a major hit with the '86 and '87 Masters. The opportunity to go even further than he did was simply derailed by what took place in both events -- sadly the fat 4-iron into the pond at #15 in the final round of the '86 event was a major blow to his ego and standing with many.

Let's also not forget Seve had no real record in of accomplishment in the US Open -- an event of equal stature for me to The Open championship. What's amazing is that with this year's event at Oakmont I can recall vividly the final round pairing of Seve with Tom Watson in '83. Watson made quick work of Seve in going out in 31 -- a payback to what Seve had done to Watson, Floyd, Crenshaw, et al with his sterling final round play at Augusta over the first five holes.

Seve changed the game in so many ways -- especially in providing a major boost for European golf. However, Lee's skills ON THE COURSE are often way underrated in so many ways. People think Lee could only hit fades -- the man could play any shot needed to win and do it when it counted.

Bill McBride:

Nothing like stepping out on a limb. C'mon Bill -- be a bit more daring and less PC.

Tim P:

What a crock -- the so-called "fear" BS. Do you think Lee feared anyone when playing them? Yes, he admitted Jack was a far better player than he -- but the Mex could play more mind games than just about anyone -- the throwing of the fake snake at Nicklaus prior to the '71 US Open playoff is a classic. His record in big time money matches -- prior to the Tour -- is well documented and known to those who care to open their minds to that clear reality.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride:

Nothing like stepping out on a limb. C'mon Bill -- be a bit more daring and less PC.

Not taking the bait.  Not taking the bait.  Did I say I was not taking the bait?  

I have to admire a guy like you, Matt, who is always right, even when he's frequently wrong!  

[David_Tepper]

Bill McBride -

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "often wrong, never in doubt."  

DT

[Tim Pitner]

Tim P:

What a crock -- the so-called "fear" BS. Do you think Lee feared anyone when playing them? Yes, he admitted Jack was a far better player than he -- but the Mex could play more mind games than just about anyone -- the throwing of the fake snake at Nicklaus prior to the '71 US Open playoff is a classic. His record in big time money matches -- prior to the Tour -- is well documented and known to those who care to open their minds to that clear reality.

What I was getting at, Matt, is that Seve was a phenomenon, a truly transcendent player.  Trevino was very accomplished, but I wouldn't put him in that class.  With Seve's 5 majors and many wins versus Trevino's 6 majors and far fewer wins, it's a close call.  I'd give the nod to Seve.  You may disagree, but calling my opinion a crock is a bit much.  

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride -

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "often wrong, never in doubt."  

DT

That too!  

[Gary Slatter]

I make it a tie.  Two brilliant golfers.
Seve did more for the game in his country and Europe. This will last forever in the history books.
Both were exciting to watch.
Trevino's Slam of US Open/Canadian Open /Open in one month sadly will never happen again.
I have been a fan of both players for a long time, I got nervous for Sevie when I watched him take a 3 hour lesson from Mac Ogrady in Scottsdale in 2000, knew he would never recover from it!

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I am a big Seve fan.  I would actually watch the Seniors if Seve played.

But Trevino wins 1-up

...

after 36.

Watch him next month.  He's returning to The Ocean Course to play in the Senior PGA Championship (on USA and NBC)...  Trevino won't be there...

[Steve Lang]

 
Always loved Seve.. never forget the car park scrambling episode.. carry his name as nickname back home..

Tour Victories:
• PGA Tour: 6
• European Tour: 56
Major Championships:
5
• Masters: 1980 and 1983
• British Open: 1979, 1984, 1988


But Lee is the Man, no contest.. oh and he's like 68 and Seve hasn't quite gotten to the Champions Tour, let alone done anything recently..

About a 1.5 yrs ago at Administaff Sr event at Augusta Pines, they paired him with Arnie on Sat and Sun in mid day... biggest crowds of event, but more importantly, earlier while I was watching Arnie at the #1 driving range position nearest first tee, and then later Curtis Strange and Don Pooley and others warm up in the middle slots.. you could hear that laugh, that voice greeting folks, jabbing at Arnie, walking down the line joking it up with the guys, the travelling circus had arrived and the clown prince was center stage.. he ambled over to the short game area, worked on wedges in and around and over sand trap, then came over to slot and began to work left and right at targets, some agreed with caddy others not, hitting to edge of range, down range etc.. was great to see him "workin" both game and mouth.. now how you gonna compare anyone to that?


PGA Tour wins (29)
1968 (2) U.S. Open, Hawaiian Open
1969 (1) Tucson Open Invitational
1970 (2) Tucson Open Invitational, National Airlines Open Invitational
1971 (6) Tallahassee Open Invitational, Danny Thomas Memphis Classic, U.S. Open, Canadian Open, British Open, Sahara Invitational
1972 (4) Danny Thomas Memphis Classic, British Open, Greater Hartford Open Invitational, Greater St. Louis Golf Classic
1973 (2) Jackie Gleason Inverrary-National Airlines Classic, Doral - Eastern Open Invitational
1974 (2) Greater New Orleans Open, PGA Championship
1975 (1) Florida Citrus Open
1976 (1) Colonial National Invitation
1977 (1) Canadian Open
1978 (1) Colonial National Invitation
1979 (1) Canadian Open
1980 (3) Tournament Players Championship, Danny Thomas Memphis Classic, San Antonio Texas Open
1981 (1) MONY Tournament of Champions
1984 (1) PGA Championship
Major championships are shown in bold.


[edit] Other wins (16)
1969 World Cup (with Orville Moody)
1971 World Cup (with Jack Nicklaus)
1973 Chrysler Classic (Australia), Mexican Open
1974 World Series of Golf (not yet a PGA Tour event)
1975 Mexican Open
1977 Morocco Grand Prix
1978 Benson & Hedges International Open, Lancome Trophy (both European Tour)
1979 Canadian PGA Championship
1980 Lancome Trophy
1981 Sun City Classic (South Africa), PGA Grand Slam of Golf (United States - unofficial event)
1983 Canadian PGA Championship
1985 Dunhill British Masters
1987 Skins Game

[edit] Champions Tour wins (29)
1990 (7) Royal Caribbean Classic, Aetna Challenge, Vintage Chrysler Invitational, Doug Sanders Kingwood Celebrity Classic, NYNEX Commemorative, U.S. Senior Open, Transamerica Senior Golf Championship
1991 (3) Aetna Challenge, Vantage at The Dominion, Charley Pride Classic
1992 (5) Vantage at The Dominion, The Tradition, PGA Seniors' Championship, Las Vegas Senior Classic, Bell Atlantic Classic
1993 (3) Cadillac NFL Golf Classic, Nationwide Championship, Vantage Championship
1994 (6) Royal Caribbean Classic, PGA Seniors' Championship, PaineWebber Invitational, Bell Atlantic Classic, BellSouth Senior Classic at Opryland, Northville Long Island Classic
1995 (2) Northville Long Island Classic, The Transamerica
1996 (1) Emerald Coast Classic
1998 (1) Southwestern Bell Dominion
2000 (1) Cadillac NFL Golf Classic



[edit] Other senior wins (10)
1991 Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf (with Mike Hill)
1992 Mitsukoshi Classic, Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf (with Mike Hill)
1993 American Express Grandslam
1994 American Express Grandslam
1995 Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf (with Mike Hill)
1996 Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf (with Mike Hill), Australian PGA Seniors' Championship
2000 Liberty Mutual Legends of Golf - Legendary Division (with Mike Hill)
2003 ConAgra Foods Champions Skins Game

Major Championships Wins (6)
Year Championship 54 Holes Winning Score Margin of Victory Runners Up
1968 U.S. Open 1 shot deficit -5 (69-68-69-69=275) 4 strokes  Jack Nicklaus
1971 U.S. Open (2) 4 shot deficit E (70-72-69-69=280) Playoff 1  Jack Nicklaus
1971 The Open Championship 1 shot lead -14 (69-70-69-70=278) 1 stroke  Lu Liang-Huan
1972 The Open Championship (2) 1 shot lead -6 (71-70-66-71=278) 1 stroke  Jack Nicklaus
1974 PGA Championship 1 shot lead -4 (73-66-68-69=276) 1 stroke  Jack Nicklaus
1984 PGA Championship (2) 1 shot lead -15 (69-68-67-69=273) 4 strokes  Gary Player,  Lanny Wadkins

1 Defeated Jack Nicklaus in 18-hole playoff - Trevino (68), Nicklaus (71)

[David_Tepper]

David Cronan -

Thanks for those Trevino quotes on Seve. If he says "Seve at his best was the best golfer I ever saw," who are we to argue?

P.S. - My guess is Norman, Faldo, Langer, Woosnam & Lyle would all agree with Trevino.

DT

[JESII]

Lee Trevino: "Every generation or so there emerges a golfer who is a little bit better than anybody else. I believe Ballesteros is one of them."

That's pretty heady stuff right there...



For a guy that was a bit too young to really understand what I was watching, coupled with his limited play here in the states, I have no way of imagining this sort of commentary...

[Brock Peyer]

I remember the gist of something that Trevino said that I find very interesting even though it is a very simple thought that most all of us miss.  He said that he attributed his excellent driving to the fact that he tried to hit his driver the same distance all the time, just like his other clubs.  

If I tried to hit mine 270 every time instead of trying for 300 here and there, I could probably keep the ball on the golf course all the time.  

Makes sense, doesn't it?

Duhhh!!!!

Seve on the other hand, probably never hit two drives shaped exactly the same let alone trying for the same distance.

[George Pazin]

Ed Tilley -

There's plenty of Americans on here who believe Seve was better - we're just tired of arguing it with Matt.

 

Terrific stuff from Lee, David, thanks for posting.

[Bill_McBride]

There's plenty of Americans on here who believe Seve was better - we're just tired of arguing it with Matt.

 

I'm still puzzled about why we have to rank one above the other.  To me they were like the two sides of a coin, between they represented everything you'd want to be in golf.  The compulsion to rank everything is what leads us into the endless wrangling over which is better, Ginger or Mary Ann?

 

[Phil McDade]

Bill:

Oh, Mary Ann, by a country mile.

Golf's most beloved figure, among others, finds favor in rating and ranking courses, because he suggests it forces one to think critically about the differences of courses, what appeals and what doesn't, what is magical and what could be improved. In short, the ranking process forces decisions and opinions about things.

I think assessing players from different eras is a fun, little endeavor. As always, an interesting question posed has led to interesting insights from GCA contributers as it's unspooled itself during these past few days. Not earth-shattering stuff, but enjoyable nonetheless.

[Jay Flemma]

Ginger or Mary Anne? That's easy

[Kalen Braley]

Ginger or Mary Anne?  Which one is better?

Well I suppose it all depends what you are looking for...

[paul cowley]

Ginger or Mary Anne?  Which one is better?

Well I suppose it all depends what you are looking for...

...why the choice?

I'd just go with whats suggested ....."Ginger AND Mary Anne".

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