Trevino or Ballesteros ?

[PThomas]

Norman's miss to 18 in 1986 at Augusta was similar/the same as his miss at 18 in the US Open at WF in 1984...I believe his right foot used to slide during his swing which caused this

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

You raise a clear view that many believe.

Norman also hit a perfect tee shot at WF / West on the last day at #18 and basically nearly shanked it dead right in the grandstands. People always talk about the par putt he made at #18 but the 2nd is one I still can't explain for the life of me.

Norman's failure at the '86 Masters was a bad omen for him for the rest of that year in the majors as he led after the 3rd round in each and only came home with one win.

The issue I have with Norman is how to explain such a tremdendous talent but one that never cam eremotely close to fulfilling such a great expectation.

[Jim Nugent]

Matt -- Greg's mental/emotional makeup held him back.  At crunch time in the majors, too often a fuse blew in his decision-making process.  I still cringe thinking about the poor mental choices he made when many big tournaments were on the line.  Then his nerves betrayed him as well, several times.  Given his abilities, it really is mystifying.  

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

In my times covering Norman I always wondered whether he really embraced the #1 tag that he had for a record number of weeks until it was surpassed by Tiger.

I'm not wise / expert enough to gauge his mental side but clearly Norman executed poorly when called upn during the high heat moments of major play.

Sometimes I think his failure can be attributed to simply getting over the hump and then finally his overall talent would have come to the forefront.

I admired his driving the ball - prior to Titanium clubs and various other improvements -- other experts say only Nicklaus himself was superior to Greg for both overall distance and accuracy.

When I place Lee and Seve up against the likes of Norman I get the sense that the first two names were mentally tougher -- although I have to say I see Seve a good bit less than the Merry Mex on that count.

The sad part is that Norman may be the greatest player to have played with no more than two majors in his portfolio. His record should have been far better than what he clearly underachieved.

[Mark_F]

Even Ben Hogan complimented the shotmaking of Trevino.  Seve couldn't win a US Open because he couldn't recover from the temporary parking lot.

Seve couldn't win a US Open because he had imagination, as well as a rightful disdain for choking rough bordering fairway and green.  

There is no reason Trevino couldn't win at Augusta other than the course got into his head.  

I would have thought the mental side of golf was something a great player like Trevino should have mastered.  He not only couldn't do it at Augusta, he spat the dummy at Royal Melbourne because the greens were too fast.  Seve mastered both places.

[Jim Nugent]

Mark, where do you rank Seve among the golfing greats?  How about Lee?  Who would you say are the peers of each one?

[Mark_F]

Jim,

I don't put as much faith in Majors.  If you did that, you would have to concede that Scott Simpson, Andy North, John Daly and Lee Janzen are as good as Greg Norman, and that Larry Nelson, Nick Price and Phil Mickelson are better, and I don't see any way how that can be reasonably argued.

So Seve is up there with the best few, because he won all over the world on all different courses in all types of conditions and beat everyone he had too.

But I wouldn't take too much note of that, because I also think Greg Norman is a greater golfer than Nick Faldo.  

Trevino was a plodder who hit from point A to point B.  

I don't see what is so difficult about winning the US Open when you know you can do that time after time.  It's courses like RM and Augusta that apply the mental blowtorch in a far more infuriating manner that separates the VB from the Guinness.

[JMEvensky]

To Mark Ferguson,what is "spat the dummy"?Something like "spit the bit"?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

Get real -- the putdown on Trevino being a plodder -- how bout we spin it the other way around -- a supreme shotmaker capable of any type of play!

Watch the Trevino win on videotape from the "72 Open Championship at Muirfield -- arguably the best Open save for the Duel in the Sun between Nicklaus & Watson at Turnberry in '77 in recent memory.

Let's also understand the majors are the real link in the overall spectrum of golf's history. Downplaying them to such an extent -- save for The Open -- is a bit much to swallow. In all sports there is a base line for assessing greatness -- the majors in golf do that quite well IMHO.

I also enjoy how you give wide latitude that Seve could be wild at times and his driving was far from being at the highest level of play. Too often the fanfare tied to Seve is based upon his personal flair and clear charisma and I dare say I enjoyed his swagger. However, I'm not prepared -- as some are -- to write-off Lee as simply a "plodder."

One other thing -- you suggest Seve's success at Augusta National and Royal Melbourne is proof positive he could play anywhere. Not quite. In the US Open -- which has to be downplayed by those outside America as a concocted USGA event -- the reality is that Seve and frankly speaking nearly all other foreign players -- save for the likes of Geoff O, David Graham and Tony Jacklin who have been able to handle -- is a clear examination that all of the greats have been able to handle -- save for Snead and Seve, to name two prominent examples.

Mark, keep in mind this if winning the US Open is (not) "so difficult in winning" than the two aforementioned players would have done so.

Also remember what I said -- I was the guy who said that Norman's collective career (two majors also) is clearly better than the names of the players you mentioned (e.g. North, Janzen, Daly, etc, etc).

On my one point we do have a closer agreement -- I see Norman's career as far more complete than Faldo. However, to Nick's credit -- the two key times when both played together in majors -- the '90 3rd round pairing at The Open at TOC where Nick blew away the Shark and the more noted final round pairing during the '96 Masters. Clearly, the Shark was spooked in both instances.

[Tim Pitner]

Mark F and Matt W,

Come on, now.  Faldo won 6 majors to Norman's 2--that's not a close call.  I don't see Faldo's 6 majors as anything like the 2 majors of Janzen, North or Daly.  For about 10 years, Faldo and Norman were threats to win in every major--the difference was that Faldo delivered more than Norman by a factor of 3.  

Two other memorable Norman-Faldo battles (although they didn't play together):  Norman's low round to win at Royal St. George's in 1993 when Faldo played extremely well as defending champion; and Faldo's win at Doral circa 1995.  Speaking of failing to deliver in the clutch--do you recall Norman's approach at the 72nd hole at Doral--I've never seen a ball so far left in the water.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Check a bit deeper than the quick retort of "x" number of majors to someone else's total.

Norman held the record -- until Tiger -- for the most weeks at #1 for quite some time. Yes, he won only two majors but although he was unable to finish off a good many of them - he made it a point to always be in the hunt in ALL four majors. Nick's dominance came in two majors -- although he also lost a playoff to Strange in the '88 US Open at TCC and finished 3rd in '90 at Medinah.

What makes the Faldo situation special is how they fared when paired up against one another. I can remember the 3rd round pairing at TOC in The Open and Norman was completely lost that day. Ditto the '96 Masters.

However, the gap between them is not thaaaaat far apart as many might think -- that's why I said that Norman's overall career is a bit more complete although his overall majors total is less.

[Mark_F]

Matt,

I'm serious. If Trevino was such a gifted shotmaker, then 25 yard wide fairways wouldn't have worried him, it was merely mechanical execution.

Put him somewhere wide like RM and Augusta where he had to figure out what to do, and the Merry Mex fell apart quicker than Greg Norman on the 18th hole of a Major.

The fact that Seve's driving was so wild proves his greatness - he was in impossible situations time and again and yet somehow still managed to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than point A to point B merchants like Tom Kite.


JMEvensky:

Yes.

Tim Pitner:

I would say Faldo won 3 Majors, and had the other 3 gifted to him.  

Faldo was one of the best players in the world for maybe 10 years - from 1987 to about 1993, then maybe a couple of years in the early eighties too.  After his second win at Muirfield up until Augusta in 1996 I think he had only won two, maybe three times, and if it had been anyone other than G Norman in front of him on that fateful day, he wouldn't have come close to green jacket number six.

Norman was one of the very best players in the world for nigh on a quarter of a century - from 1984 to the early 2000s, and did what Seve did - won all over the world on all sorts of courses in all sorts of conditions.  

Faldo relied on Scott Hoch missing a two footer, Norman imploding in front of him and John cook ballsing it up at Muirfield in 1987.  It could just as easily have been Mize missing his chip in and Tway not holing a bunker shot, and he could have won 5.  

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I agree that "majors won" is not a decisive factor when the difference is something like 2 to 1 or, in the case of Trevino and Seve, 6 to 5.  When the tally is 6 to 2, though, I think that's meaningful.  In addition to The Country Club and Medinah, Faldo had several top 10s in the US Open and PGA.  Norman only won at one major--the British--how does that prove that Norman was more complete?

Mark,

Norman undoubtedly was a great player, but Faldo won all over the world as well.  I agree that Norman was at the top of his game for a longer period than Faldo.  Your argument that Norman was a better player than Faldo because, among other reasons, Norman gifted Faldo a Masters, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  BTW, Faldo shot a pretty terrific 67 that Sunday.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

Let's be clear shall we --

1). You seem to diminish the role of the four majors in their overall meaning / standing to the game and its longstanding traditions.

2). You also have a very low regard for the US Open and likely its set-up as handled by the USGA. You see I believe winning the US Open is no less than winning the British Open -- or as some say The Open.

On both points we simply agree to disagree.

You also elevate the idea that since Seve was a winner at Augusta and at Royal Melbourne then ergo he could play the more complete game than Lee. Again, we shall agree to disagree on that point.

Let me further point out that wild driving likely contributed to Seve losing quite a few events that straighter driving would have won. For example, I can remember Seve in a playoff with J.C. Snead at the Buick Classic in NY when Seve duck-hooked the ball off the tee (they are still looking for it) and simply handed the event to a very fortunate Snead. There are other examples I can add as well in this regard.

Mark, allow me to point out that various golf experts have tabbed Trevino -- second to only Hogan as a consumate ball striker and shotmaker. I guess each of those folks who believe that are in serious denial or error.

Lee's failure at Augusta was more about attitude than sheer skill / talent. Read the interview I conducted with him and what comes across loud and clear is a general disdain for the place. To believe that Lee could not win anywhere in the world is a deep cloud on your overall understanding of the game he clearly had for so many years.

One other thing -- I like how you decided to throw Tom Kite in the mix as some sort of link to Trevino -- that's a clever parlor trick and not worthy of any credibility. Kite is truly a plodder to use your term -- Trevino is far beyond that type of low level label.

Trevino is vastly underappreciated by a wide number of people -- much of it because he spent far little time playing overseas (much of the emphasis was centered on The PGA Tour then) -- save for The Open which he not only won twice but was able to defend his crown too.

Mark -- I can appreciate what you say about Norman v Faldo. I too believe the Shark was indeed immensely talented and often is downplayed simply because of his major count. But let's not forget the key head-to-head moments w Faldo at the '90 Open at TOC and the classic '96 finale at Augusta. If Greg could have won either time his name would have gone up considerably -- particularly with the '96 Masters. I share your belief that his overall impact as a world class player is a good bit greater than many will agree but Norman had a very bad habit in flinching at the worst of times.

Tim:

Greg Norman is the only man to have led after the 3rd round at each of the majors in a single year -- winning the '86 event at Turnberry. Got to give the man a bit of credit for demonstrating the capacity to be in such a position. Not even Tiger has done that.

You conveniently glossed over my previous point -- consecutive weeks at the #1 position in the world -- only recently bettered by Tiger. I guess that doesn't mean squat to you. So be it.

One other thing -- Norman is only the 2nd man to have lost all the majors in a play-offs -- if memory serves -- I believe Craig Wood is the other.

The guy was a constant force -- for quite a few years. Norman also was fully capable in going EXTREMELY LOW on any course he played. Check out his superb play in winning The Open at Sandwich ('93) and his final round total in that victory. Minus the missed putt at #17 it was simply awesome stuff his final round of 64 was breathtaking -- ditto his margin over Faldo as well.

Yes, I am not excusing Norman for a number of the tough losses. No doubt Greg deserves the heat he gets from that. However, for so many years Norman was the man at the top of the heap. Faldo has the greater number of majors but I would love to hear the take from someone like Mike Clayton in this regard since Mike was inside the ropes and likely has played with both men.

Tim, when I say "complete" -- I am referring to the fact that Norman always seemed to be in contention on a far more comprehensive scale than Faldo. It seems that everytime one turned on the tube Norman was front and center. Let me also point out his utter destruction of the TPC during The Plyaers Championship. Norman was a vexing character -- but his skill level was clearly present and deserves a good bit more acknowledgement than simply thinking of him as an ultimate choker or other such thing.

[David_Tepper]

Matt Ward -

I believe you are mistaken when you say that Trevino "spent far too little time playing overseas."  In fact, I would say that he spent far more time playing abroad than most of his peers of that era on the PGA Tour.

In addition to his Open Championships at Muirfield and Birkdale, his foreign tournament wins include:

1978 & 80, the Lancome Trophy (France)
1981 Sun City Classic (South Africa)
1978 Benson & Hedges Open (Britain)
1985 Dunhill British Masters
1974 Moroccan Open
1973 Chrysler Classic (Australian)

Just this morning on the Golf Channel's broadcast of the Italian Open, Phil Parkin was talking about American golfers playing in European Tour events. He specifically mentioned Trevino as one of the few Americans who made an effort to play in Euro Tour events other than the British Open.

DT

[Mark_F]

Let's be clear shall we --

You seem to diminish the role of the four majors in their overall meaning / standing to the game and its longstanding traditions.

Yes, I do.  If Majors were truly to identify only the best in the game, then wouldn't the fields be limited to 50 players? No one doubts the ability of those from 50-156, but they aren't in the same cattlecart.

You also have a very low regard for the US Open and likely its set-up as handled by the USGA.

I do.  If the US Open was to really mean something, would it be played at Hazeltine? Bellerive? Torrey Pines? Medinah? The USGA simply take it to too many ordinary tracks, and when they do take it do a good one, they smother the place in weeds and ruin it.

And/Or flatten the greens beforehand.

Mark, allow me to point out that various golf experts have tabbed Trevino -- second to only Hogan as a consumate ball striker and shotmaker. I guess each of those folks who believe that are in serious denial or error.

I would go along with them.  But there's a bit more to it than that, as one G Norman shows.  Arguably the best driver of a ball in history, great putter and short game - better than Lee?- pretty good iron player, and yet he still came up empty.

Lee's failure at Augusta was more about attitude than sheer skill / talent.

Isn't that part of the make up of a true champion?  And he failed miserably.  

Either that, or he forgot Augusta was a Major, or it was one that held no meaning for him.

To believe that Lee could not win anywhere in the world is a deep cloud on your overall understanding of the game he clearly had for so many years.

I don't believe I said that.  But I would wager Trevino didn't win as often overseas as Seve on a percentage basis.

Kite is truly a plodder to use your term

But he won the US Open, Matt.

Trevino is vastly underappreciated by a wide number of people -- much of it because he spent far little time playing overseas

But I thought he could win anywhere in the world.  Did he only go overseas to win?

[Jim Nugent]

Mark -- can a plodder win two Open Championships in a row?  

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

For every Tom Kite you name -- I'll be sure to mention the journeymen of Todd Hamilton, Ben Curtis and Paul Lawrie. Geeze, I forget what major they have in common? Maybe you can refresh my memory.

Keep in mind the rotation of US Open sites is far greater than the limited rota favored by the R&A for the British Open. I also did not defend or condone going to such nondescript places such as Hazeltine or other such locales. Just try to highlight the vast preponderance of the others -- you might have heard of Shinnecock, Pebble, Winged Foot, Oakmont, etc, etc.

When you say Seve won more events globally -- the sheer facts are that he played much more overseas than Lee did. You see I don't place much weight on winning the Bavarian Classic or the Norway Invitational, etc, etc.  

David T mentions how much Trevino played overseas but often times it was tied to his going to the British Open or a special event in which he had ties to the presenting sponsors.

Mark, when you talk about failure -- then Seve was a bust in two of the major events -- specifically the US Open and pGA Championship. You can dress it up anyway you like with excuses or other such reasons. It's very convenient and utterly lame to simply chalk these two events as second tier. The US Open is the equal, IMHO, with the British Open. It provides a certain test of golf that many certainly will be repulsed with. However, all the greatest names in golf have won in such situations -- only Snead and Seve are missing and I have to say that attempts to elevate the Masters (a club invitational) with a bonafide national championship run by one of the two leading golf associations in the globe is a big time stretch on your part.

No doubt we shall agree to disagree -- but that's OK. I too thoroughly enjoyed what Seve provided -- I just see Lee with the edge.

David C:

Good point on Lee's wins in the majors -- however, if you check out the weather for his two BO wins I believe the courses were quite firm and fast. Shoal Creek is the one glaring event in which the course played quite a bit slower.



 

[Mike Hendren]

Alas, it has been settled - it's a tie.  Trevino and Seve tied for last at +16 at the Regions Charity Classic in Birmingham.

See?  These things always work out.

Mike

I ain't as good as I once was.
-Toby Keith

[Rich Goodale]

I'll still give the nod to Lee, on an age-adjusted basis.

[JESII]

Alas, it has been settled - it's a tie.  Trevino and Seve tied for last at +16 at the Regions Charity Classic in Birmingham.

See?  These things always work out.

Mike

I ain't as good as I once was.
-Toby Keith

You just can't make this stuff up...