Trevino or Ballesteros ?

[Gary Slatter]

John Daley is a pure talent and is charasmatic and generally has no game plan.  He also has a great short game, is awesome with the putter, and can also certainly "spray" it around more often than not.

Is he just a less dedicated version of Seve??

IMO John D just has a different "training" program than Seve, and this has kept him from being the shining star that he might have been.   But isn't he great!  He is more of a "draw" than Trevino or Seve - but the backswing (and Phrill's) is too long, and his fuse too short,  to win consistantly on the big stage, now that fairways have been narrowed.

[Ed Tilley]

Phil Benedict -

You make a very telling comment when you say the US Open "is our national (US of A) championship." I imagine the vast majority of golfers in growing up in the US dream of winning the US Open. But do you think Player or Seve or Faldo or Norman necessarily grew up dreaming of winning the US Open? Somehow, I rather doubt it.

Maybe the foreign players just don't feel the US Open is as important as we think it is (and we expect them to think it is). My guess is the British Open is the event they cherish the most and the Masters could very well be #2 on their list. Judging people (who have different standards) by our standards might be a mistake.


     

I can't speak for Australia, South Africa etc. but in the UK the Open is the event, with the Masters at number 2. For many years the US Open and US PGA weren't even televised. Both Seve and Faldo would have grown up dreaming of winning the Open first and the Masters second with all others well behind.

Personally, I would rate the US Open as the number 2 event behind the Open. I can't see how you can rate an invitational event above your country's national open.

[Matt_Ward]

David T:

Mea culpa on my part since you favor the Merry Mex.

Keep in mind the World Match Play Championship was a concocted IMG event and often times slotted their own clients into the event. Also, given the late year scheduling of the event a number of prominent players would often skip it.

One last item -- for anyone to believe that an invitational event is ahead of a bonafide national championship played in a country with the rich tradition that the United States has provided is truly brainwashed on what takes place at Augusta.

I can totally understand how certain foreign players might see The Masters in a different light but if you ask Seve would he trade one Masters win for a US Open victory and I can't see how he would answer anything less than a quick yes.

David, I did indeed talk to the people you have asked me to speak to. This isn't about me diminishing what Seve did -- it's about elevating what Trevino has accomplished. Too often in today's sports world too many people only remember the most recent past -- anything more than 20 years ago and you might as well as be speaking about the time the dinosaurs rolled the world.

P.S. I think you might want to speak to a number of the players who played opposite Trevino and see what they think of him as well.

[David_Tepper]

Matt W. -

Maybe we can agree on this - Seve as Snead compared to Trevino as Hogan.

(and don't forget Snead beat Hogan on more than one occasion!)

DT

[Matt_Ward]

David T:

You are right --

Hogan & Trevino (6 US Open titles)

Snead & Ballesteros (O US Open titles)

Case closed.

P.S. I would still take Snead over Seve in a NY minute.

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

I also presume you would take Hogan over Trevino in that same minute!

DT

[Matt_Ward]

David:

My margin of Snead over Seve is far greater than Hogan's over Trevino.

Fair to say from your perspective ?

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

Not sure about that. Seve may well have had a better all-round short game (putting, pitching, chipping & bunker play) than all three of them!

DT

[Matt_Ward]

David:
 
How convenient you leave off the main frame of the game ...

driving the ball (distance and direction) Hogan and Trevino rate among the best of all-time.

long irons

mid-irons

short irons

fairway wood / metal play

On the putting side I don't see Ballesteros far ahead of any of three.

One other thing -- Seve needs the short game in order to stay even remotely close to the others you mentioned.

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

What % of your score are short-game shots each round? 40% or more?

Short-game IS the main frame of the game!

DT
tcmnav@aol.com

[Matt_Ward]

David:

You undervalue the importance of straight driving on the better courses. I can remember Seve trying to get around Oak Hill in the '95 Ryder Cup singles matches against Tom Lehman and his short game was indeed magical -- however -- it can't help you when you have no tee game to bring to the table.

I tip my hat to Seve for his imagination and creativity but eventually that type of stuff will run out when countered by golfers who have air-tight tee-to-green games. The three aforementioned players have that in my book.

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

Please, if you are thinking of Seve' play in the 1995 Ryder Cup (7 years AFTER he won his last major) as a context for judging his greatness, you are missing the boat utterly and completely. His game was toast by then. That is no secret.

I thought the only statistic that mattered in competitive golf was posting the lowest score. Do they give trophies for most fairways hit or most greens in regulation? If so, I must have missed that memo!  

DT

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

Obviously, Seve was not at the top of his game at Oak Hill in 1995.  Considering how far Seve was hitting it sideways, it was a credit to him that he didn't lose his singles match to Lehman by a ridiculously large margin.  In fact, I've heard European Ryder Cup players say how inspired they were by Seve hanging in with Lehman (although he still lost handily).  

At his best, Seve's long game was pretty good, if erratic.  You could say the same thing about Tiger Woods (particularly with the driver), and he's done pretty well in the majors department.  

[George Pazin]

Matt, why is it that you only seem to think of Seve post-1993 or so?

Why doesn't it matter to you that many actual tour pros consider the Seve of the 80s to be the best golfer in the world during that period?

Seve finished top 5 at Oakmont in '83; someone who drives the ball as poorly as you think he did throughout his career could never have accomplished that at Oakmont.

You seem to view Seve's major victories simply as flukes. Strangely, few of his peers seem to agree.

[George Pazin]

How about that? 3 posts within 60 seconds of each other that all make similar points.

Interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Wake up and smell the coffee -- Seve needed a mapquest to find fairways. One of the most imaginative golfers for sure -- but one of the most careless golfers of the magnitude we are speaking about here.

George P:

Allow me to refresh your memory about the '83 Open -- since I was there covering it. Seve was toast after the front nine when his playing companion (Tom Watson) buried him with a five-under-par front. If memory serves -- Seve finished the front nine one-under-par but was never remotely in the hunt for the title. Saying he finished 5th is the equivalent in paying homage to the fact that Ernie Els finished second to Tiger in the 2000 US Open.

One other note -- Seve abandoned his driver during the event in order to keep the ball remotely close to the fairways.

One other thing -- I never downplayed Seve's skills or his wins in the majors. Just try to put some stock in the fact that I'm not here to downplay Seve but serve notice on how considerable the skills were of Lee Trevino.

Tim P:

Please don't even think about putting Seve and Tiger in the same sentence -- there is no connection whatsoever.

One other thing -- if I'm not mistaken you are the guy who downplayed a win in the US Open prior to Shinnecock Hills coming on board as a site for the championship in 1986 -- I'm still waiting for your retort on that one. By the way dig a bit deeper than simply throwing back Andy North's name -- you might have forgotten Jack's epic win at Baltusrol in '80, Watson's heroic play at Pebble in '82 and David Graham's superb final round 18 at Merion. One other thing check out the winner's of The Open Championship in recent years -- do the names of Paul Lawrie and Ben Curtis ring a bell?

David T:

Forgive me but the players who can master hitting fairways and greens usually win the big time events. Seve was successful in venues in which driving the ball accurately wasn't such a big deal. More power to him. But when you assess true greatness -- not just the bravado, guile, savvy and charisma elements -- you need to really look a bit deeper at overall greatness. Great players can win anywhere and frankly as I said to you previously -- I see the gap between Snead and Ballesteros to be far greater than the one between Trevino and Hogan.

[Mark_F]

I tip my hat to Seve for his imagination and creativity but eventually that type of stuff will run out when countered by golfers who have air-tight tee-to-green games. The three aforementioned players have that in my book.

Like Andy North, Curtis Strange and Scott Simpson?

I would pay to watch Seve tie up his shoelaces, even when he's wearing slippers.

[Shane Gurnett]

Matt Ward, I agree with you 100%. Everyone you have mentioned was better than Seve at hitting fairways, especially on those narrow, boring, penal courses that held the US Open in the 80's.

When do they hand out the trophy's for "most fairways hit in a US Open". And if you collect enough of those, does it get you into the World Golf Hall of Fame?

Oh, and by the way, did Tom Watson go on to win the 83 US Open where he "buried" Seve on the front nine? Or did some other guy who "buried" Watson take home the prize that year?

[wsmorrison]

If MW's aim is to praise a particular player (in this case Trevino) especially as he thinks he hasn't been regarded highly enough (we'll call it ranking for simplicity's sake) then why is it necessary for him to go to all this trouble to compare him to one individual from a different era and point out all his faults while praising Trevino yet not really acknowledging any of Trevino's faults?  Why not just laud Trevino or analyze his career to emphasize a point and forgo the ranking methodology?  

Is Trevino better than Ballesteros?  Who cares?  There is no right or wrong answer.   They were both great players.  

[George Pazin]

Well said, Wayne - as usual.

[Mike_Clayton]

I was lucky enough to play with both these guys - Trevino once and Seve quite a bit.
Both were unbelievable players with great records and they played diametrically opposite games that were both enthralling to watch.
No player I ever saw was close to Seve in terms charisma and creating a demand that you watch not only his shots but his every move from the first tee to the final green.
His crooked driving has been greatly exaggerated - he found the middle of the fairway more than he has ever been given credit for and he shaped his driver beautifully to fit the wind,the ground and the shape of the hole - and Tiger makes him look like Trevino off the tee when he gets his driver going sideways.
It's amazing how the American press give Tiger a free pass with his driver but got all over Seve for his perceived waywardness.

Mark F.

Curtis Strange had a pretty air-tight tee to green game made for America but if you were going to be critical you would argue that it did not translate well to the links courses where Trevino and Seve thrived because there were multi-dimensional players.

[David_Tepper]

Mike Clayton -

Thank you for your comments. It is always helpful when someone with actual firsthand knowledge and experience can share their opinions with us.

DT

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

i wish you would comment more often on any number of subjects. You were there at the source and your comments are invaluable.

Bob  

[Gordon Oneil]

Mike,

i wish you would comment more often on any number of subjects. You were there at the source and your comments are invaluable.

Bob  

AND

Mike Clayton -

Thank you for your comments. It is always helpful when someone with actual firsthand knowledge and experience can share their opinions with us.

DT

Holy moly, Batman...two complimentary, gentlemanly, gracious, positive, civil and downright kind posts in a row.  Am I on the correct site?  Have we entered the Twilight Zone?

GCA, warm and fuzzy?

Sorry boys, not to upset the apple cart but this run of pleasantness just feel right.

Two words,  Todd Hamilton.

[Gordon Oneil]

Mike,

i wish you would comment more often on any number of subjects. You were there at the source and your comments are invaluable.

Bob  

AND

Mike Clayton -

Thank you for your comments. It is always helpful when someone with actual firsthand knowledge and experience can share their opinions with us.

DT

Holy moly, Batman...two complimentary, gentlemanly, gracious, positive, civil and downright kind posts in a row.  Am I on the correct site?  Have we entered the Twilight Zone?

GCA, warm and fuzzy?

Sorry boys, not to upset the apple cart but this run of pleasantness just feel right.

Two words,  Todd Hamilton.

Sorry, I don't know what got into me.

Actually, I have very strong feelings on the subject.  Trevino and Seve, Seve and Trevino, the order really doesn't seem to matter.  To make a truly American comparison (though my Americanness doesn't translate into a dialed in vote for Trevino), it's as close, in comparison to one another as well as their respective places among the all time greats, as Marino and Montana.

What I admire the most but what seems to be pointed out here the least is that where ever they fall individually on any list of the best ever, they both rank even higher (with not much room for upward mobility) on a list ranking mental toughness and/or clutch play.

There can't be too many other players that anyone would choose to play either playing the 72nd hole tied or with a one shot lead or attempting a 12 footer for birdie and the win to save their mortal soul.

If in fact it could be saved...