Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?

[Phil_the_Author]

Bethpage Black's greens are primarily Poa. They are maintained in wonderful condition and everyone was deeply impressed by their quality in 2002.

"Let me tell you, these greens actually prove(d) to me that Poa greens can make great putting surfaces..." Roger Maltbie, 2002, during NBC's Open telecast.

[Doug Siebert]

There are various strains of bent and bermuda that the USGA has been working on for years, creating stuff like A1, A4, etc.  Do they do anything with poa?  Do new courses ever deliberately seed with poa?  Would it be possible for another course to use the Oakmont strain if they wanted to have Oakmont like greens (and were willing to spend the money on maintenance)

[Tom_Doak]

I noticed on TV today that in the tower close-ups of a couple of greens you could see obvious coloration stripes.  For a second I thought they'd had a hydraulic leak on one of he mowers.  Then, I realized it must be the drainage trenches they installed a couple of years back into the push-up greens -- they must be drying out a bit more quickly than the rest of the green and are therefore a different color.

[Jeff Goldman]

Tom,

I think that's the XGD system by TDI International, out of Canada.  I've heard that one of the main drawbacks is that striping.

Jeff Goldman

[Steve Okula]

There are various strains of bent and bermuda that the USGA has been working on for years, creating stuff like A1, A4, etc.  Do they do anything with poa?  Do new courses ever deliberately seed with poa?  Would it be possible for another course to use the Oakmont strain if they wanted to have Oakmont like greens (and were willing to spend the money on maintenance)

Doug,

There are people researching and trying to develop a usable Poa annua seed suitable for putting greens. There is at least one on the market that I know of, labelled Poa reptans. I tried it but seed germination was very slow and inconsistent, it didn't perform.

The highly evolved Poa annuas like at Oakmont don't produce enough seed that would germinate, however, there is no doubt the greens turf could be duplicated by gathering aerator plugs and propogating them in a nursery, but this would take a few years to get enough to do a golf course.

[RT]

Tom,

I was hoping someone also noticed that too.  The TV view from behind 10 green on Friday's round got me thinking I saw exactly what you described.

RT

[Kalen Braley]

I noticed on TV today that in the tower close-ups of a couple of greens you could see obvious coloration stripes.  For a second I thought they'd had a hydraulic leak on one of he mowers.  Then, I realized it must be the drainage trenches they installed a couple of years back into the push-up greens -- they must be drying out a bit more quickly than the rest of the green and are therefore a different color.

I saw those too and couldn't figure out what they were.  Thanks for the info on that.

[Jim Johnson]

I don't know a lot about Poa.

Does one need fairly hot weather to make it a suitable surface for putting? Here in western Canada, we have a local muni course (supposedly designed by Stanley Thompson) which has poa greens, and each season they just never seem to get "good" until the summer months, when the real heat sets in.

JJ

P.S. Happy Father's day to all of the fathers.  

[Ron Farris]

I didn't get to watch much of the Open yesterday but I did see the striping of the greens.  My initial thought was that it was an overlapping on an application of Iron for color.  The same striping just occurred at my home course.  But as I think back to what I saw I would tend to think the lines were too straight and evenly spaced for an iron application error.   Tom you are probably right about the lines being drainage.

[Ken Moum]

I don't know a lot about Poa.

Does one need fairly hot weather to make it a suitable surface for putting? Here in western Canada, we have a local muni course (supposedly designed by Stanley Thompson) which has poa greens, and each season they just never seem to get "good" until the summer months, when the real heat sets in.

JJ

Mostly, it hates really hot weather, which is why you don't see it much south of the places being mentioned here. I live in KS, and our the Poa where I play is usually pretty hard to keep alive in July.

OTOH, where you are, it might take summer weather to get the seeds to germinate and fill in any winter losses.

K

[Troy Alderson]

There are various strains of bent and bermuda that the USGA has been working on for years, creating stuff like A1, A4, etc.  Do they do anything with poa?  Do new courses ever deliberately seed with poa?  Would it be possible for another course to use the Oakmont strain if they wanted to have Oakmont like greens (and were willing to spend the money on maintenance)

Doug,

Illahe Hills in Salem Oregon rebuilt greens to USGA specs and sodded with poa out of Canada.  The greens putt fantastic and are a monoculture for the most part.  Please do not quote me, I do not remember the details just the perfect greens.

Poa annua "annual bluegrass" is a terrible turf until it has become "perrennial" after years of management.  Then it makes a good putting surface if managed with "in general" light applications of water and fertilizer and plant protectants.  Some superintendents are able to manage poa as other grasses, as the strongest strains will survive.

I read an article once of a superintendent that shut off the fairway irrigation in the middle of summer (east of the Mississippi) for one week killing off the weaker poa annua.  Aerated and verticut the fairways, overseeded with dirt cheap bents, and started his lean and mean management program.  He was not concerned about poa "weed" seeds in the bent as there was probably more poa seeds in the soil than in the bag and that any poa that survived his management routine deserved to live.  He created some of the best fairways in USGA tournament competition.

Troy

[Steve Kline]

They said on TV that tried growing the Oakmonth poa just a few miles away at another course and it didn't take.

[SL_Solow]

I have had the opportunity to discuss this issue with a number of experienced superintendents and just last week spent time with a field rep for the USGA green section.  Apparently poa mutates quite often as an adaptation to specific sites and conditions.  The changes can vary in different areas on the same course and can produce excellent putting surfaces.  For example, at our home course, Briarwood a 1921 Allison which has mostly original greens  the upper left portion of our 15th green and the back left of our 17th green have significant swards of poa which is as fine and dense as many of the newer strains of bent, although they are not as deeply rooted.

[tlavin]

Illahe Hills in Salem Oregon rebuilt greens to USGA specs and sodded with poa out of Canada.  The greens putt fantastic and are a monoculture for the most part.  Please do not quote me, I do not remember the details just the perfect greens.

Poa annua "annual bluegrass" is a terrible turf until it has become "perrennial" after years of management.  Then it makes a good putting surface if managed with "in general" light applications of water and fertilizer and plant protectants.  Some superintendents are able to manage poa as other grasses, as the strongest strains will survive.

I read an article once of a superintendent that shut off the fairway irrigation in the middle of summer (east of the Mississippi) for one week killing off the weaker poa annua.  Aerated and verticut the fairways, overseeded with dirt cheap bents, and started his lean and mean management program.  He was not concerned about poa "weed" seeds in the bent as there was probably more poa seeds in the soil than in the bag and that any poa that survived his management routine deserved to live.  He created some of the best fairways in USGA tournament competition.

Troy

Wow.  Now there's a superintendent with job security.  That took some nerve to pull off!

[Pete Lavallee]

It's funny, but I didn't notice the striping until the second day of play. I can't remember exactly where I read it, but the Super indicated that after installing heringbone drainage, his percolation rates went from 0.5 inches per hour to 5.0 inches per hour.