John Huggan gives the group a mention

[Brian Phillips]

I am with Rich here apart from Brora.  North Berwick is good but it is only good for one thing.  A day at the links with some of your best mates playing a fourball matchplay.

It is too short and too easy for it to be rated anywhere near the ROW top 50...

Fun, quirky golf course but not really much else...but it is one of my favourite places in the world to play golf...especially with friends like we did very often when I studied in Edinburgh.

Brian

[Jon Wiggett]

Brian,

I am sorry that you don't appreciate the many fine qualities of NB. I played an Open qualifier there and can assure you that it is a great test of strokeplay although an even better test of matchplay. The difficulty and length of a course is only part of the things that are considered in the rankings and I would challenge anybody to find NB easy in its normal status with a 20-30 mile wind that often blows there.

RFG,

for me Sandwich is a super golf course and deverse to be above NB in the rankings although it does lack the flexability of NB in being to tough for higher handicappers. But NB is not goofy rather quirky and if you believe that Redan is a goofy hole then you are going in the face of most GCA thinking. The finishing holes are unique certainly but this is what most players want or would you rather that all courses were the same?

[Brian Phillips]

Jon,

If you put a 20-30 mph wind on any course it will become difficult.  Compared to the courses that Rich listed North Berwick is no where near as challenging and never will be.

I played North Berwick many times over a year and most times it did not have 20-30 mph winds that you are suggesting.  North Berwick has its own micro climate and it usually has very nice weather when compared to the rest of Scotland.

North Berwick is an easy course but of course with a 20-30 mph wind it will become difficult but so would any course in the world.

Brian

[Rich Goodale]

Jon

The majority of GCA "thinking" thinks that a "Redan" is what Macdonald built at NGLA.  This is not the case.  CB's is a very different and much better golf hole.

To love 15 NB is just to wallow in misinformed nostalgia, IMHO.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Which of my 13 do you think are not significantly better than North Berwick and why?  I might concede Brora, since I am almost a homer there and put it in only to provoke NB-phanatics like you.

As for Sandwich, I said all I wanted to say in the various threads at the time.  To give you the Cliff Notes version--too fast and firm and tight for the terrain.  Clueless "maintenance meld" as TEP might say, if he really knew what "maintenance meld" meant..... .  Same as Shinnecock and Carnoustie 1999, BTW.

Great course, disappointing Open.

Bill

Funny, but my dream stretch at NB is 10-13.  Tremendous holes with a great flow to them.  After that it just loses its rhythm and gets too goofy.  Fun?  Of course.  Great golf?  No.

Rich

Rich

I don't doubt you feel all of the 13 you mention are better than NB - who knows, you could be right.  I play the game for fun (and therefore equate fun with good) and for the most part seek courses with a balance of challenge, beauty,  funk, affordablity and a nice clubhouse with decent food and ale doesn't hurt either.  Most Open courses are waste of time for me.  They are too difficult, too expensive, too much like Disney World, too much of a slog in any sort of wind and often without much sense of frivolity.  I reckon the course that sums up this description the best is Troon.  Though, I don't have fond thoughts for Turnberry or Carnoustie either - not my bag.  Coming from this perspective the only course in Scotland I would put in the class of NB is Dornoch.  

Courses which are a close second tier are TOC (though I shudder to think what a visit there in the summer would do to my golfing psycheeeee), Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, Southerness and Brora.  

The next tier is Muirfield, Prestwick, Dunbar, Royal Aberdeen, Mussleburgh Old, Shiskine and the Gullanes.  I must admit to not knowing some of the courses well enough due to a failing memory and/or lack of get up and go, but for the most part, I am not bothered if I ever see any of the others I have played up there again.    

BTW  The Open is what it is.  I loved watching the golf at Sandwich because I was astonished to see so many players try to play smashmouth golf.  Sandwich is not that type of course and I bet we will see Tiger (at least) change how he plays the course in the future.  In many parts, Sandwich is like an inflated version of TOC.  All the bumps, rolls and hollows can be learned and dealt with for those who are patient.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

RFG,

I think you will find that all GCA (Golf Course Architects) know what and where Redan is. I believe on the part of wallowing in misinformed nostalgia it is you Sir that is misinformed

[Tony_Muldoon]

So the case against is that N Berwick is to short?  Agreed for a championship test but Darwin and Dickinson thought this way back then, yet they, along with Doak, recognise there is something very special there.  What does ‘great course’ mean anyway if it doesn’t recognise fun and holes which have to be described as unique and original when used as terms of lowing praise.

I love 1 and think 2, 3, &4 are a splendid start to a round.  My man criticisms would come with 5 & 6 that I find a little pedestrian and 7 is merely solid.  But if 8 is played as a ball busting par 4 the course already sets up tougher. From 9 on I’m all smiles, even if 12 doesn’t quite stack up in this company - but I really like the green. Given the green 13 has to be a drive and chip but the fairway contouring makes the wall more of danger than it looks first time out- superb.  I’ve never seen any of the copies of 15 but even today it's a testing and interesting hole.  For those who’ve not seen it you will be surprised how little of the green you can see and how distracting (and never mentioned) are the valley and bunkers in front of it.  18 is merely a coda and I think 16 would be improved if it could be lengthened to more than a wedge for the second shot (we’ve done that at 13).  What variety.

As special mention must be made for the routing and the magic in the views. Even Pat Mucci would notice the scenery here. Out along the sea, inland at 4, but great views on the 5th tee.  Back to the sea at 10 and then the final view after the wonderful shot upto the 17th green.  Nowhere I’ve seen brings alive the ideal of a links played right by the sea.  And even if the hole is weak 18 leads you beautifully to the Clubhouse.

Not a ‘Championship’ course but it still demands you play your strokes and rewards good play.  Steve Cipfa the pro at my club qualified for the Muirfield Open in 1992.  He was equal low pro with a 65 on benign day.  Last year I spoke to a couple of members and they said in the prevailing wind the course plays tough out but crafty back, the greens on the second 9 are smaller and more interesting and they said that’s the real genius of the place.

I am aware that those in the overrated camp have played it numerous times.  Is it a case of those of us who’ve played it less falling for flashy tricks?


I think Doak sums it the dielema here nicely.  ON his scale he defines how he rates courses and  I couldn’t give the course more than a Doak 8. However the then puts it into his ‘top’ 31 flavours of golf.

For all its faults I think it deserves to be recognised as “Great”.  Top 50 in the world? Well that depends what you’re looking for.

[Brian Phillips]

Jon

The majority of GCA "thinking" thinks that a "Redan" is what Macdonald built at NGLA.  This is not the case.  CB's is a very different and much better golf hole.

To love 15 NB is just to wallow in misinformed nostalgia, IMHO.

The Redan at NB is the 'only' true Redan in golf.  It is a good hole that has now been improved upon around the world.

It was probably a much greater hole when a low running shot had to be hit at the area before the green.  These days that is not needed and a high shot with a medium iron is all that is needed.

Still a beautiful hole to wallow in nostalgia though Rich...  

[Rich Goodale]

Sir John

You would be surprised to learn how many GCA's (architects and anoraks) have built (and even commented on) "Redans", or the Old Course, or whatever, without ever seeing the real thing.  That's all I am saying.

Commoner Rich

[Brian Phillips]

I think Doak sums it the dielema here nicely.  ON his scale he defines how he rates courses and  I couldn’t give the course more than a Doak 8. However the then puts it into his ‘top’ 31 flavours of golf.

For all its faults I think it deserves to be recognised as “Great”.  Top 50 in the world? Well that depends what you’re looking for.

I think Tom sums it up perfectly.  It is exactly that sort of course that belongs in someones 'top' 31 flavours of golf because it is so different to many other courses.

To put it in the Top 50 of the world puts to shame the many other courses new or old that exist that are of a better overall quality in design than North Berwick.

I would rather play North Berwick over Muirfield any day but Muirfield is the superior golf course with regards 'golf'. North Berwick is just a fantastic place to be especially with friends.

Brian

[James Bennett]

Rich

on the knowledge of GCA'ers involved with the Redan, I think you are right.  The real thing is quite different to what they perceive the original of the template to be.  I have heard that such people say this when the opportunity to see the original finally occurs.

Doesn't make the template holes any less great though.

On the matter of North Berwick and its place in golf, I suspect you may be less right, IMO.

James B

[KBanks]

Has anyone seen the revised greens on the back nine of Royal Aberdeen, done by Donald Steel, that Huggan refers to? I was not aware such work had been done.

Any opinions?

Ken

[Rich Goodale]

Ken

I saw them being built a few years ago.  It was more a reconstruction (i.e. moving tees and greens to get length) that any sort of renovation.  The back 9 needed a kick up the arse....

Brian

Doak's 31 flavo(u)rs were based on the premise of one course for each of 31 great architects.  That he chose NB shows what an afficionado he is (was?) of Davie Strath, not necessarily the course....

Tony

If you love the 1st at NB there is no hope for you.  Possibly the worst 1st hole at any course in the world, "championship" or otherwise.  You are a nice person, though.

[Brian Phillips]

Ken

I saw them being built a few years ago.  It was more a reconstruction (i.e. moving tees and greens to get length) that any sort of renovation.  The back 9 needed a kick up the arse....

You mean REDESIGN and RECONSTRUCTION...

[Bill_McBride]

And Bill, that low raking draw on 18. is also a nerve tester!

Jon, a couple of years ago I hit that "low raking draw" (a defensive play such as might be played on #18 at TOC!   ) into the depressed area directly behind the sunken golf professional's shop!     You wouldn't think it possible to hit the ball that far left!

[Bill_McBride]

Richard, if you can't enjoy North Berwick on its own merits, without comparisons to dozens of other courses, then I fear you have become jaded.  Pity.

And what's wrong with Belhaven's Best?  Mike Benham swears by it.

I sort of agree about the Dunvegan but it's handy and Miss Sheena is still a wonderful person.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Ken - I've played the new greens at Royal Aberdeen, and while I don't know what they were like beforehand, it's all too easy to identify the new greens among the old (which itself is a bad sign). I'd agree with John's comments.

As for the wider thread...I like coming here because the people here tend to like the same design features, styles, etc. as I do. But at the end of the day, our opinions - as informed as they may be - are still just that, opinions. If a particular golfer prefers a course with no blind shots, no "quirk", straightforward features, "signature holes" and lush conditioning, does that make his opinions less valid than mine, Tom Doak's or John Huggan's? We're talking about art here, not mathematics - there is no right and wrong, and the more elitist this site gets, the more like an insufferably pretentious art critic it collectively becomes. Personally, I doubt there are more than 10 courses in Scotland I'd rather play than North Berwick, but at the same time I fully acknowledge that it is beyond the pale for many, and measured against the average golfer's tastes in architecture, it is definitely not a great course.

Cheers,
Darren

[Ken Moum]

I really think this should wait for it's own thread but anyone else place Brora above N. Berwick?  

At the moment, I do , having played each of them only once last July.

But then I noted last summer that the locals seem to think Cruden Bay is the third-best course in the Fraserburgh/Peterhead area. I asked why that was the case, and was told that they didn't like some the "goofy" holes.

Methinks the love of quirk around here has tilted people in favor of courses like North Berwick and Cruden.

Of course, it could just be jealousy on the part of folks from Peterhead and Faserburgh.

How many here have even played Fraserburgh
http://www.golffraserburgh.com/Fraserburgh_Golf_Club/Photos.html

Or Peterhead
http://www.peterheadgolfclub.co.uk/course.htm

Ken

[Darren_Kilfara]

Ken - I've played Peterhead. It has some neat holes and is worth a visit if you're basing yourself in the north-of-Aberdeen area for a while, but it's no Cruden Bay.

[Rich Goodale]

Ken

I saw them being built a few years ago.  It was more a reconstruction (i.e. moving tees and greens to get length) that any sort of renovation.  The back 9 needed a kick up the arse....

You mean REDESIGN and RECONSTRUCTION...

I probably do, Brian!

Bill

I can and do enjoy NB for what it is, just as I enjoy Bellhaven and the Dunvegan for what they are.  In fact I enjoy a lot of things that are just good and not great.  If that's being "jaded" I must re-check my dictionary.

Tony

I've played Peterhead and it is very good.  Probably not quite Cruden Bay standard, but in NB's category.  Fraserburgh is on the wish list.