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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2007, 11:49:42 AM »
Obviously it would have to start with someone who recognized great golf whether they were playing it, or writing about it.

That would have to be in the late 70's and early 80's with two published works, The World Atlas of Golf and Cornish & Whitten's massive undertaking, The Golf Course. These two books inspired, taught, opened the world for those involved. Other published works had to be Frank Hannigan's piece on A.W. Tillignhast, which reintroduced the world to a forgotten soul.

At the Renaissance's genesis, the people who are the leaders today were just getting their start: Bill Coore was a superintendent; young punk and pain in he ass, Tom Doak was just beginning to insult the so called architects of the day with both his minimalist manifesto of ideas and thoughts of what Golf Courses had lost and how to get it back. Others were just getting underway with their careers and education too. But most, it was an architect who dared to give them a chance and prove themselves. He showed the world you could be different when he designed differently, and crossed the edge of familiarity. That person was Pete Dye.

As far as courses, most of us know that it was Pete Dye's work at Harbor Town with Jack Nicklaus which garnered in an age of new thinking. It was prised and celebrated. If one course started this genesis, then it was Harbor Town. It would take about ten years later but the TPC of Sawgrass also played it's part, as did the Mountain Course at La Quinta. These courses inspired the younger architects working on them to dig deeper, further and the young guns realized that it took doing the work an the finish work themselves to get it perfect.

But most, these people started to read, and the works of the Golden Age, the last remnants of how the masters did it, inspired further. This enabled a Bill Coore to create a Kapalua Plantation and A Tom Doak to create a High Point, etc.

The rest of it, is history.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2007, 12:04:12 PM »
Tommy,

Excellent post.  As noted above I agree with the role played by Harbour Town and TPC-Sawgrass.  

Ironic that a totally manufactured course and relatively narrow tree-lined course played pivotal roles in the renaissance.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2007, 02:16:10 PM »
I believe the "renaissance" is not limited to GCA but illustrates a general trend toward historic recognition and preservation that is taking place in all facets of our culture.  

Take a look at urban design and think back to the 70's and how "old stuff" wasn't cool and a lot of history was razed and replaced with gleaming stainless and glass.  Things we look at today and wonder "what were they thinking..?"   Nowadays there is a lot more effort toward preservation of historic structures and more careful blending of old with new.

An example:  Multi-purpose stadiums like Riverfront, Fulton County, and Three Rivers are being replaced with throwback traditional ballparks like Camden Yards, etc.  

My thoughts are that this general trend of historic recognition contributes to the golf design "renaissance" more that any of the other listed factors combined.

I do find remarkable, the introduction of a new resort (Bandon) that is "cartless,"  perhaps revolutionary, as the trend in resort golf has been more and more "cart only."

Tom



TEPaul

Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2007, 08:24:00 PM »
"I believe the "renaissance" is not limited to GCA but illustrates a general trend toward historic recognition and preservation that is taking place in all facets of our culture."

Tom Yost:

Undoubtedly, you're right, as is Paul Cowley. The discussion of a subject like this should probably begin in a much broader context---eg a sort of societal context, or some context of the "cycles" in particularly American culture.

The Dyes, C&Cs, Doaks etc don't just pop out of a vacuum---the times do have to be ready for them and so does golf.

Paul Cowley mentions the so-called "Greening of America" that was certainly a societal cycle that emerged out of perhaps the 60s, the Vietnam War and the entire so-called "Social Revolution" that produced something of a "counter culture". All of that was clearly inspired by real  dissatisfaction with one thing or another and basically swept the country (not everyone but certainly enough).

We need to look not just at the protestors but at the very things that were and are being protested to understand why things inevitably change.

C.B Macdonald's primary inspiration was not simply some type of old world architectural principles, it was a overarching abhorence of the crap he saw all around him in architecture at that time before NGLA.

Beginning perhaps 15 or 20 years ago a significant slice of golf in America had probably just become dissatisfied and bored with the regularity and lack of naturalism of the so-called "modern age" of architecture which had had perhaps a 40 year run.

Back to Paul Cowley's mention of the so-called "Greening of America". That was no doubt a massive cultural or generational shift. It also began almost 45 years ago. It's initial proponents have grown old now and have actually gone through a shift back towards conservatism.

My point is golf is perhaps one of the most inherently conservative recreations there is and so are most of the people who are interested in it and it isn't lost on me that golf got around to a rejection of the status quo almost an entire generation after the so-called "counter culture did with their "greening of America".

What I'm saying is golf in the larger sense is generally conservative and traditional and consequently slow to react. It is definitely not at the vanguard of cultural change. It's probably at the tail end of it.

To understand what has happened with the renaissance in golf and architecture and to predict what may happen in golf or golf architecture next one should probably be mindful of W.C. Field's remark of what one should do if the world came to an end which was---"Go to Philadelphia because it is at least 30 years behind the times."

If the naturalism bent of the renaissance in golf architecture is in any way akin to the "greening of America" via the counter culture of the Social Revolution that emanated out of the 1960s and 1970s, again the renaissance in golf architecture is about 30 years behind the times. But for conservative and traditionalist golf that is not surprising. ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 08:30:42 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2007, 09:21:01 PM »
Last night I deleted a rambling post that I didn't like it, but this topic is too interesting. I think this question can either have a 4-page "Golf Digest" kind of answer or an 800 page "history of American golf" kind of answer. I'd probably like the former; I know I'd treasure the latter.

I have to guard against my own tendency to look for a massive and underlying "theory of everything" in these kind of questions; in this case, that's easy, since I know so few of the concrete particulars needed to generalize accurately. But, why couldn't the answer be: "It started with CB Macdonald's birth in 1856"?

Nothing comes from nothing; unless you posit an "uncaused cause" in the history of golf, the long line of influences and interactions seems to me to flow backwards for much more than 30 or even 100 years.

Here's an example from an field I know just marginally better than I do gca. There's been books written about what brought about the late 60s/early 70s film revolution in Hollywood, and what had influenced the new-breed of young directors like Scorcese and Coppola. One very plausible answer is "It was John Cassavetes, who basically invented the idea of independent film when he made 'Shadows' in the late 1950s". That idea holds water: Scorcese adored Cassavetes and learned much from him. But then you read Cassavetes saying that he himself loved Frank Capra pictures and Capra's mastery of the craft, and he wished he could make those type of films, and tried to do that while always remaining true to very personal his vision and experience.  But where did Frank Capra learn HIS craft? I think it was making dozens and dozens of silent shorts in the early 20s for Max Sennett. And so on....  

I'm just theorizing of course, and probably badly; but I just don't know how what we have today is NOT tied into the first ever masterpieces designed in America, or how we can avoid going back further still to what influenced that "founding father" in his early days.  

Peter  

 

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2007, 09:48:27 PM »
Most golfers dont spend time thinking about course design.There is a movement back to inner cities and thus old courses,and many golf course real estate developments are showing their age.When the new wears off an antique always looks better than something from the last decade.

Jim Nugent

Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2007, 09:53:34 AM »
Quote
Nothing comes from nothing

The riddle of our existence.  

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2007, 03:24:11 PM »
Slightly OT: is it not slightly curious that Harbour Town should have the seminal status it has within the "renaissance", that it should have been the first course Jack Nicklaus worked on - and yet his work, as best I can tell, does not/has never sought to emulate the principles of the renaissance?

I wonder what lessons he took away from Harbour Town - clearly not the same as many others.

T.J. Sturges

Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2007, 08:23:37 PM »
Philip,

A great question.  I wonder, was this Mr. Dye's way to win a big project early in his career by adding Mr. Nicklaus to his team (letterhead)?  How many days did Mr. Nicklaus spend on property at HT?  Has Mr. Nicklaus ever done a course that is as highly regarded as Harbour Town?  

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

TS

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2007, 08:28:05 PM »
Mr. Nicklaus was added to the design team by the developer, Charles Fraser, who knew a thing or two about marketing.  Mr. Dye had already been hired.  Jack did make a bunch of visits to the site during construction -- more than he makes on most of his own courses today -- but he obviously wasn't as busy.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2007, 08:43:50 PM »
Mr. Nicklaus was added to the design team by the developer, Charles Fraser, who knew a thing or two about marketing.  Mr. Dye had already been hired.  Jack did make a bunch of visits to the site during construction -- more than he makes on most of his own courses today -- but he obviously wasn't as busy.

that's interesting Tom, cause I KNOW i've read - more than once I think - that Jack was the one hired first/was the "lead architect"
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 08:52:12 PM »
Paul:

Maybe I've got that wrong.  But I am positive that Pete Dye did not bring Jack in to get the deal, as Ted implied.  It was a separate transaction.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Genesis for the renaissance
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2007, 04:25:48 AM »
pg 92, "Bury me in a Pot Bunker", Pete Dye says: "I would never  have been involved in Harbour Town if Jack hadn't introduced me to Charles Fraser and told him we were working together."

"Charles Fraser knew the importance of having Jack Nicklauss's name associated with the course, but from our first meeting, it was clear that I would be the designer and Jack would be the consultant." etc

None of this answers my question re Jack!